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Old 12-23-2016, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,162,395 times
Reputation: 3738

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Uh oh, now you've done it. Prepare yourself for a bunch of references and so called inside scoops from that zerohedge blog, that is vette0009's go-to place for news.

.
Well I made the mistake of getting lost in YouTube channels - my gosh some of the crap these people believe just defies belief

 
Old 12-23-2016, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,162,395 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Societal change ususally happens subtly, almost by osmosis.

But more specifically, repeated terrorist attacks most definitely have a collective psychological effect. I mean, how can they not? They change a place more than we realize.

Also, I am trying to think of a period in modern history when one can truly point to even a small number of newcomers to various countries engaging in behaviour meant to destabilize and terrorize them. (Realizing that the numbers we are are talking about are very small - the effects can still be devastating sometimes.)

I can't think of any examples. Every country has certainly seen immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers engage in criminal activity for personal gain, but this "Trojan Horse" thing is unique and new IMO.
I guess the question is what is the solution? I mean, there is only so much intelligence and police work will do to prevent a terrorist attack. Also, terrorism while recently far more likely in western societies to be from radical Islamists, can also be homegrown as well. So yes, screen immigrants/refugees, have an effective counter terrorism police network to deal with internal/external threats, but really and unfortunately it is just a fact we probably have to deal with.

I also think working more effectively at helping immigrants integrate is really important and we all have a role to play in that. Not just government but we as the people and as individuals. Otherwise what is the alternative - shut down our borders to newcomers who have a certain religious/ethnic background? I think the more we do that, the more we are going to cut our nose off to spite our face and I think that applies to all western nations but it is a question we have to ask and we are going to have to have an answer. I'm not sure you can be so much in the middle about this!

Another point I think needs to be made is that I don't think Canada is taking on more than it can chew relative to some Euro countries. France has been deluged in a way we haven't. There is also a much stronger connection to muslim countries in France than we have (history and geography), so they are an easier target plus its just a numbers game. The U.S is more a target than we are simply because of its geopolitics. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen here, just that I think we are less of a target than others for a variety of reasons.

Last edited by fusion2; 12-23-2016 at 10:40 PM..
 
Old 12-23-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,453,273 times
Reputation: 3262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I just wanted to say that I get your point Luis.

It's almost like it's all about one side of the coin being "sexy" and exotic, and the other one isn't seen that way.
 
Old 12-24-2016, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,410,308 times
Reputation: 8623
I am not being alarmist but things can sometimes change more than we realize. Slowly and subtly... and then all of a sudden everything is different.

There has been a buzz for years in France about how in certain areas around Paris and other French cities, women are being shunned, harassed, etc. That the pendulum of social climate seems to be, let's say, shifting away from linear progress on women's place in society. Not just when it comes to individuals (individuals harass women and mistreat them all the time in Canada too), but that such behaviour is becoming socially acceptable, almost a norm.

So a TV news crew decided to go check it out. In the Paris area and also in the Lyon area. This is what they found. (BTW, France 2 is a public broadcaster roughly equivalent to the CBC.)

Franceinfo - Actualités en temps réels et info en direct
 
Old 12-24-2016, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,410,308 times
Reputation: 8623
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I guess the question is what is the solution? I mean, there is only so much intelligence and police work will do to prevent a terrorist attack. Also, terrorism while recently far more likely in western societies to be from radical Islamists, can also be homegrown as well. So yes, screen immigrants/refugees, have an effective counter terrorism police network to deal with internal/external threats, but really and unfortunately it is just a fact we probably have to deal with.

I also think working more effectively at helping immigrants integrate is really important and we all have a role to play in that. Not just government but we as the people and as individuals. Otherwise what is the alternative - shut down our borders to newcomers who have a certain religious/ethnic background? I think the more we do that, the more we are going to cut our nose off to spite our face and I think that applies to all western nations but it is a question we have to ask and we are going to have to have an answer. I'm not sure you can be so much in the middle about this!

Another point I think needs to be made is that I don't think Canada is taking on more than it can chew relative to some Euro countries. France has been deluged in a way we haven't. There is also a much stronger connection to muslim countries in France than we have (history and geography), so they are an easier target plus its just a numbers game. The U.S is more a target than we are simply because of its geopolitics. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen here, just that I think we are less of a target than others for a variety of reasons.
I think that Canada should more or less continue to do exactly what it's been doing. But integration is key and we should not let up on that front - and even go further than we already have.

We should also crack down harder on the "behavioural", as opposed to the "assumed".
 
Old 12-24-2016, 06:29 AM
 
18,335 posts, read 10,407,207 times
Reputation: 13399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Uh oh, now you've done it. Prepare yourself for a bunch of references and so called inside scoops from that zerohedge blog, that is vette0009's go-to place for news. .
Well, we can pretty much take to the bank that actual recorded history isn't his long suite. A simple research of how successful the U.S. has been in the past at occupying much smaller countries with poorly fed and equipped peasants as opposition would have caused him pause.

These boards are going to benefit from all sorts of silly things coming out of Washington in the near future, either through official channels or by 3 AM tweets, that will keep these pages more than furnished with fodder for our musings.

Vette0009's going to get all the encouragement one of his kind could possibly desire to maintain a constant and heightened state of puffery.
 
Old 12-24-2016, 06:48 AM
 
18,335 posts, read 10,407,207 times
Reputation: 13399
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I guess the question is what is the solution? I mean, there is only so much intelligence and police work will do to prevent a terrorist attack. Also, terrorism while recently far more likely in western societies to be from radical Islamists, can also be homegrown as well. So yes, screen immigrants/refugees, have an effective counter terrorism police network to deal with internal/external threats, but really and unfortunately it is just a fact we probably have to deal with.

I also think working more effectively at helping immigrants integrate is really important and we all have a role to play in that. Not just government but we as the people and as individuals. Otherwise what is the alternative - shut down our borders to newcomers who have a certain religious/ethnic background? I think the more we do that, the more we are going to cut our nose off to spite our face and I think that applies to all western nations but it is a question we have to ask and we are going to have to have an answer. I'm not sure you can be so much in the middle about this!

Another point I think needs to be made is that I don't think Canada is taking on more than it can chew relative to some Euro countries. France has been deluged in a way we haven't. There is also a much stronger connection to muslim countries in France than we have (history and geography), so they are an easier target plus its just a numbers game. The U.S is more a target than we are simply because of its geopolitics. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen here, just that I think we are less of a target than others for a variety of reasons.
My hope is exactly this.

Government listening to concerns so that they arrive at a point of mixed optimism and caution. By all means maintain Canada's welcome mat to newcomers but do so with a goodly amount of investigation, oversight and support for each and every one.

Maintain preference for entire families over single males and once they arrive maintain adequate support systems for them so that they assimilate with cooperation rather than reluctantly. We're all seeing plenty of the good stories in the news but I'm sure there are bad ones too that need pre-emptive attention.

It's all in the application of our largesse being used as a photo op by Trudeau and perhaps getting forgotten about before he's back in his office versus them being quietly welcomed into a community to have neighbours and others prepared to provide long term assistance of more than just the charitable kind. A baked pie at the front door ain't gonna cut it.

I hate the thought of them arriving to fanfare at the airport with a big grinning PM taking selfies only to later being given the keys to some slum lord's idea of an apartment with no hot water and full of rats with everyone in their immediate surroundings already remote enough from each other that they're looked upon as just another turd in the already full-of-turds punchbowl.

Given similar treatment I'd probably think of some applied terrorism myself.
 
Old 12-24-2016, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,693 posts, read 6,549,724 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But integration is key and we should not let up on that front - and even go further than we already have.

We should also crack down harder on the "behavioural", as opposed to the "assumed".
What do you mean by this?
 
Old 12-24-2016, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,162,395 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think that Canada should more or less continue to do exactly what it's been doing. But integration is key and we should not let up on that front - and even go further than we already have.
With the understanding I think that the government can only do so much and as I said, we all have a role to play with that integration as does the immigrant/refugee of course.
 
Old 12-24-2016, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,410,308 times
Reputation: 8623
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
What do you mean by this?
That we should react to what people actually say and do instead to what we expect or assume them to.
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