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Old 12-18-2016, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,166 posts, read 1,750,098 times
Reputation: 2630

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Regardless of their political orientation. I doubt that many Americans on either side of the nation's current polarization are "getting desperate"; that description could only be applied to the less-seasoned "snowflakes" drawn to the Clinton campaign, and a number of fringe groups focused on various single issues -- many of which can't be characterized as right- or leftist.

I voted, but for neither Trump, or Clinton, and while I consider Trump nothing better than the lesser of two evils, It's my hope that once the final phase of the electoral "spasm" passes. we can return to business as "usual"(?) -- and devote more of our attention to fine-tuning a system that has worked well for most of the past two-and-a-half centuries. The American Experiment is not in immediate danger, and the results of the past election cycle serve as proof. The Founding Fathers intended the Capitol, rather than the White House, to be the true center of American participatory democracy.
Very well said. I remember when Ronald Reagan was elected, and a number of people were convinced that he'd start raining nukes down on the USSR, which would retaliate by raining nukes down on the USA (and by extension, Canada--hey, you didn't think that the fallout from strikes in the northern US would stop at the border, or that Soviet targeting was good enough to hit inside the US always, did you?). But although there were a few tense years in the early 1980s, the system worked as it had for 204+ years in those days, the checks and balances were in place, and cooler heads prevailed.

I see the same happening now. I don't like Donald Trump being President, but the USA as an idea is larger than whoever happens to be President at any given time. The country may be fractured along political lines right now, but at the end of the day, I'm sure the vast majority of Americans (regardless of who they voted for) feel that somehow their country will always muddle through, no matter who, or which party, is at the helm. Heck, the US has worked for 240 years so far, through many crises and Presidents good and bad; and I see no reason why it cannot make it through this presidency also. In short, the idea of a "United States of America" is bigger than the presidency; and the Constitution, Congress, and the people (yes, even those in California, New York, and the other states shown on the OP's map) will make sure it stays that way.

As for the OP's question, no, such an idea would not work. True, the states shown on the OP's map may seem to be more in tune with Canada, but I doubt that they really are. Beyond the popular social issues (gay marriage, abortion, single-payer healthcare, etc.), I don't think residents of those states would take kindly to an unelected head of state at both the federal and provincial levels, no Senate houses at the provincial levels, and an unelected federal Senate (in short, a Westminster parliament). There are other political and attitudinal differences, but those are the major ones, I think, that would make or break such a deal.

 
Old 12-18-2016, 10:53 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,070,697 times
Reputation: 1256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Very well said. I remember when Ronald Reagan was elected, and a number of people were convinced that he'd start raining nukes down on the USSR, which would retaliate by raining nukes down on the USA (and by extension, Canada--hey, you didn't think that the fallout from strikes in the northern US would stop at the border, or that Soviet targeting was good enough to hit inside the US always, did you?). But although there were a few tense years in the early 1980s, the system worked as it had for 204+ years in those days, the checks and balances were in place, and cooler heads prevailed.

I see the same happening now. I don't like Donald Trump being President, but the USA as an idea is larger than whoever happens to be President at any given time. The country may be fractured along political lines right now, but at the end of the day, I'm sure the vast majority of Americans (regardless of who they voted for) feel that somehow their country will always muddle through, no matter who, or which party, is at the helm. Heck, the US has worked for 240 years so far, through many crises and Presidents good and bad; and I see no reason why it cannot make it through this presidency also. In short, the idea of a "United States of America" is bigger than the presidency; and the Constitution, Congress, and the people (yes, even those in California, New York, and the other states shown on the OP's map) will make sure it stays that way.

As for the OP's question, no, such an idea would not work. True, the states shown on the OP's map may seem to be more in tune with Canada, but I doubt that they really are. Beyond the popular social issues (gay marriage, abortion, single-payer healthcare, etc.), I don't think residents of those states would take kindly to an unelected head of state at both the federal and provincial levels, no Senate houses at the provincial levels, and an unelected federal Senate (in short, a Westminster parliament). There are other political and attitudinal differences, but those are the major ones, I think, that would make or break such a deal.

Very well said Chevy.
 
Old 12-18-2016, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,166 posts, read 1,750,098 times
Reputation: 2630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slate Moonstone View Post
Um, I don't mean to be dense, but what exactly are these "issues" you're talking about? I mean, obviously Canada isn't perfect - no place is - but things are going pretty well there.
No, things aren't going pretty well, at least from where I sit as an Albertan. Let's look at one of your points:

Quote:
... the economy is recovering from the oil slump....
No, it has a long way to go--longer, actually, because of our federal government's carbon initiatives, and (for us Albertans) our provincial government's carbon initiatives.

It is easy to say that exploration and extraction in Alberta have been affected by the oil price slump. What is more difficult to show is the ripple effect--the service industries that relied on oil workers to employ them. The manufacturers of pipe, the welders, the seismic equipment manufacturers--all are affected. Beyond that, families of all of the above now cannot afford as many groceries, cannot afford as much home and car insurance as they used to carry, and cannot afford the entertainments (movies, meals out, etc.) they once enjoyed. When a southern Alberta sports bar admits that they have fewer customers due to the oil slump, it means something. It means that they no longer are filling the place with insurance brokers, car mechanics, and pizza delivery drivers; because demand for such services has dropped.

These are things that the power brokers in eastern Canada cannot see. Why? I don't know. Maybe because such things don't touch them or their families. Oh, perhaps indirectly--on the TSX or NYSE, for example--but they can sell Suncor or Gulf Canada and buy IBM or Microsoft, and all is well. But here in Alberta, workers and families that have an ownership stake through sweat equity, and those that rely upon them for business, continue to be tossed aside like old shoes.

It gets worse. On January 1, the Alberta government will introduce its carbon tax. For consumers, that means 4.5 cents on a liter of gasoline--for our American friends, that's give-or-take about 25 cents a gallon. I am unsure how this tax hits home heating, but I know that it does. And since we've just come through two weeks of -20C temps--temps that require cars to be plugged in overnight and to warm up before they can be driven, and homes to be heated comfortably; and since the government has presented this tax as not progressive (i.e. revenues will go to the general fund, instead of fighting pollution), I am left feeling that it is a punitive measure for doing things that we once did without thinking about. In other words, we're being punished for just living our lives as we always have.

Before I go too far off-topic, I'll leave things by saying, no, the economy is not recovering from the oil slump. Regardless of world oil prices, Alberta's economy is just going to suffer more, thanks to this carbon tax. It seems to me that unemployed Albertan oil patch workers, their families, and Albertans as a whole, will suffer a longer period of uneconomic growth than they would otherwise need to.
 
Old 12-19-2016, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,515 posts, read 7,456,802 times
Reputation: 10916
I am a loyal American, I believe in what this nation is supposed to be. I am also conservative politically, but I only voted for my congressman and other local leaders. I found both presidential candidates repugnant and unqualified. I believe trump was elected simply as a rebellion against the radical left, PC culture and the general decay that is obvious in our nation today. Some people believe trump can reverse these things, I really doubt it. The radical left became violent after the election and they are now threatening a west coast secession.
Canada is the closest ally the US has, so much like us but yet different. I personally love Canada and have always enjoyed visiting Canada. My advice to our Canadian friends is to be prepared for what may happen to the USA. You know our history, civil war and rebellion are in our past. It can happen again, the divisions we face today are deep and irreconcilable. To make matters worse we are now lead by a president who really is not qualified. The radical left is already plotting, they openly talk of violence, obstruction and extra constitutional measures to take over our government. The right is emboldened, and some of the uglier elements of the right are making openly racist and hostile comments. This really looks very bad to me. Many Americans are simply worried and afraid because of the divisions, threats of violence and the presence of an unqualified man in the White House. This is not the USA I grew up with.

I hope sanity returns but history shows us an ugly picture of what we may be heading for. All great powers fall, well this could be our time. Canadians hopefully are pulling for us, but you should also be prepared to protect yourselves if this country dissolves or descends into disorder. It happened 150 years ago, everyone should recognize the potential for our history to repeat itself. In a better world it would be nice to see North America move closer together, but in the current reality the US is the biggest threat to North American stability.

I wish I could say that our society can be healed, but I just don't know how it can be. There is so much division, crime, drugs etc. anyone over 35 can remember when this was not true to the extent it is today.
 
Old 12-19-2016, 12:56 AM
 
997 posts, read 578,361 times
Reputation: 2290
I don't see why Canadians would be interested in our mess.

I don't know much about Canada at all. I know that their border people are very rude.

I know that their online shopping options leave much to be desired.
 
Old 12-19-2016, 12:57 AM
 
1,147 posts, read 470,757 times
Reputation: 750
The assumtion that Canada is "liberal America" is oversimplistic and inaccurate.
 
Old 12-19-2016, 02:55 AM
 
34,365 posts, read 41,446,089 times
Reputation: 29853
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwerbilzak View Post
But:

1) you'd be leaving the part of America that is sinking fast behind,
2) Canada could use a lot of the innovation places like New York and California bring, and
3) Canada doesn't want to have to deal with an America that has sunk.
I think the term if it aint broke dont fix it applies in this hypothetical scenario,Canada is doing just fine without the need to burden itself with 40 million + disgruntled Americans. We also dont need the land as Canada has more land than it knows what to do with.
,so whats in it for Canada in this hypothetical situation?
Bottom line? if your country (America) is in the crapper fix it dont expect Canada to do it for you.
 
Old 12-19-2016, 03:05 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,166 posts, read 1,750,098 times
Reputation: 2630
Just for fun ... who would like me to debate Justin Trudeau?

Me: constitutional lawyer, who has researched Supreme Court of Canada issues, who has defended clients at provincial court issues on constitutional grounds, who knows our constitution inside-out, forwards-and-backwards, and who has been consulted at the highest court in the land.

Or Justin Trudeau, who seems to be a failed drama teacher?

I'd like a debate with Mr. Trudeau. Can we bring this on?
 
Old 12-19-2016, 04:37 AM
 
18,265 posts, read 10,366,114 times
Reputation: 13321
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Just for fun ... who would like me to debate Justin Trudeau?

Me: constitutional lawyer, who has researched Supreme Court of Canada issues, who has defended clients at provincial court issues on constitutional grounds, who knows our constitution inside-out, forwards-and-backwards, and who has been consulted at the highest court in the land.

Or Justin Trudeau, who seems to be a failed drama teacher?

I'd like a debate with Mr. Trudeau. Can we bring this on?
I'd certainly donate one bus rental to get sou'western Ontarians off their duffs and up to Ottawa for that one.

Better yet.........make him come to you.

If you could find anyone with a Science background to debate that fraud Suzuki, we could go for a twofer.

An addition to your earlier:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topst...WaT?li=AAggFp5

Last edited by BruSan; 12-19-2016 at 05:32 AM..
 
Old 12-19-2016, 04:42 AM
 
18,265 posts, read 10,366,114 times
Reputation: 13321
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
I am a loyal American, I believe in what this nation is supposed to be. I am also conservative politically, but I only voted for my congressman and other local leaders. I found both presidential candidates repugnant and unqualified. I believe trump was elected simply as a rebellion against the radical left, PC culture and the general decay that is obvious in our nation today. Some people believe trump can reverse these things, I really doubt it. The radical left became violent after the election and they are now threatening a west coast secession.
Canada is the closest ally the US has, so much like us but yet different. I personally love Canada and have always enjoyed visiting Canada. My advice to our Canadian friends is to be prepared for what may happen to the USA. You know our history, civil war and rebellion are in our past. It can happen again, the divisions we face today are deep and irreconcilable. To make matters worse we are now lead by a president who really is not qualified. The radical left is already plotting, they openly talk of violence, obstruction and extra constitutional measures to take over our government. The right is emboldened, and some of the uglier elements of the right are making openly racist and hostile comments. This really looks very bad to me. Many Americans are simply worried and afraid because of the divisions, threats of violence and the presence of an unqualified man in the White House. This is not the USA I grew up with.

I hope sanity returns but history shows us an ugly picture of what we may be heading for. All great powers fall, well this could be our time. Canadians hopefully are pulling for us, but you should also be prepared to protect yourselves if this country dissolves or descends into disorder. It happened 150 years ago, everyone should recognize the potential for our history to repeat itself. In a better world it would be nice to see North America move closer together, but in the current reality the US is the biggest threat to North American stability.

I wish I could say that our society can be healed, but I just don't know how it can be. There is so much division, crime, drugs etc. anyone over 35 can remember when this was not true to the extent it is today.
You have hope. It starts there.
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