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Old 01-12-2017, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,160 posts, read 1,748,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
Ask Jim Keegstra if hate speech laws are rarely enforced.
He will tell that is simply not true.
Keegstra is a special case. If he had expressed himself in the public sphere--letters to the editor, call-ins to talk radio, publishing pamphlets, etc.--he would have been fine. Where he went wrong was in demanding that his high school students (for those who don't know, Keegstra was a high school teacher) parroted his Holocaust-denying views on tests and exams. This distinguishes his matter from one like Zundel, who also denied the Holocaust, but did so only in the public sphere. (And Zundel was found "not guilty" of hate speech every step of the way.)

Canada's hate-speech laws are indeed rarely enforced, and when they are, they often fail in the face of Charter s. 2(b), freedom of thought, belief, and expression; and they cannot be saved by the s. 1 Oakes Test. Cases in this area include Keegstra, of course; but also R.v. Zundel, R.v. Krymowski, and R.v. Whatcott. A reading of these cases will indicate just how narrowly hate speech is defined in Canada; the circumstances under which a prosecution is likely to be successful (and when it is likely to be unsuccessful), and that contrary to what many think, "hurt feelings" never enter into the equation. Because of the precedents in this area, Crown prosecutors are naturally reluctant to proceed unless a matter fits the very narrow parameters laid down by those cases. As a result, prosecutions are rare; convictions even more so.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:00 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,482,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
I know that. They are both hate groups though. They have been known to march together on occasion.
Both hate groups yes, but Nazism needed a scapegoat, and people of Jewish faith were an easy target because, population-wise, theywere financially successful. Stats today might indicate that the Mormon, or Scientologists, are more financially lucrative.

KKK is not financially successful, is typically backwoods, and seems like hillbillies with guns.
It seems like an oxymoron to think that a KKK conehead is the same as a ruthless SS officer.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,160 posts, read 1,748,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks View Post
I did not realize tge kkk had a beef with Catholics too? Not sure what's up with that.
Simple. In the minds of WASP North America, Roman Catholics' primary allegiance is to the Pope, in Vatican City. Only secondarily, do they owe allegiance to the US or Canada. In other words, Roman Catholics will do what the Pope says before they will do what their country asks.

This was a real fear when JFK was elected President. He was a Roman Catholic--would he institute Roman Catholic policies in the United States, where they would, in some cases, conflict with the Bill of Rights? (Separation of church and state being the main worry, but there were others.) Of course, history tells us that JFK did no such thing, but nobody knew that for sure after election night in November, 1960.

Notice that I said "WASP North America." There were a number of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs) in both Canada and the US who never rose to the level of the KKK, but outside of neighbourly contacts over the back fence ("Hi, Mrs. O'Leary! Nice day, eh?") and commercial dealings ("Mr. Battaglia's market has the freshest produce"), wanted nothing to do with Catholics. I remember some of my high school buddies being told by their parents that they were not to take their girl of choice to a school dance "because she's Catholic."

That feeling is mostly gone now, and to the vast majority of WASPs, Catholics are just normal people. But the KKK and others like it, are still stuck in the 1950s on this matter.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:37 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,482,126 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Keegstra is a special case. If he had expressed himself in the public sphere--letters to the editor, call-ins to talk radio, publishing pamphlets, etc.--he would have been fine. Where he went wrong was in demanding that his high school students (for those who don't know, Keegstra was a high school teacher) parroted his Holocaust-denying views on tests and exams. This distinguishes his matter from one like Zundel, who also denied the Holocaust, but did so only in the public sphere. (And Zundel was found "not guilty" of hate speech every step of the way.)

Canada's hate-speech laws are indeed rarely enforced, and when they are, they often fail in the face of Charter s. 2(b), freedom of thought, belief, and expression; and they cannot be saved by the s. 1 Oakes Test. Cases in this area include Keegstra, of course; but also R.v. Zundel, R.v. Krymowski, and R.v. Whatcott. A reading of these cases will indicate just how narrowly hate speech is defined in Canada; the circumstances under which a prosecution is likely to be successful (and when it is likely to be unsuccessful), and that contrary to what many think, "hurt feelings" never enter into the equation. Because of the precedents in this area, Crown prosecutors are naturally reluctant to proceed unless a matter fits the very narrow parameters laid down by those cases. As a result, prosecutions are rare; convictions even more so.
Keegstra is a special case, and it is no different than prosecutions of hate speech violations in the form of graffiti at a train station. Hate speech is not tolerated by anyone, and it is foolish for anyone to suggest that Canada takes hate speech lightly in spite of clear law.

Keegstra was also a local political figure.

Can you cite an example of hate speech in Canada that has not been addressed - excluding the internet for the obvious reason that websites are typically hosted in the USA and governed by USA law - were free speech includes the exclusion of respect for the autonomy of others?

Prosecutors will proceed if they believe they will win, especially with crimes of a personal nature.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,160 posts, read 1,748,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
Keegstra is a special case, and it is no different than prosecutions of hate speech violations in the form of graffiti at a train station. Hate speech is not tolerated by anyone, and it is foolish for anyone to suggest that Canada takes hate speech lightly in spite of clear law.
Keegstra is very different from graffiti-ing a train station. Do you know the definition of hate speech in Canada? Hint: you can find it in the cases I cited.

Quote:
Can you cite an example of hate speech in Canada that has not been addressed - excluding the internet for the obvious reason that websites are typically hosted in the USA and governed by USA law - were free speech includes the exclusion of respect for the autonomy of others?
I honestly have no idea what you are asking here. Can you be clearer?

Quote:
Prosecutors will proceed if they believe they will win, especially with crimes of a personal nature.
How many prosecutors do you know? How many times have you negotiated with a Crown prosecutor? How many times have your arguments convinced a Crown to withdraw charges? How many times have you been in court, speaking for the defense, with a Crown arguing against you? I've been there plenty of times, both in court and before Human Rights tribunals. Have you? How do you know what Crowns will do in any given situation?

Given that I have spoken in court, negotiated with Crowns, appeared before tribunals on behalf of clients, and done all of the rest that I've mentioned above, and you have given me no reason to think that you have done similarly, I think I'm in a better position to comment than you.

Until you have done what I have, perhaps you should be quiet, and let those of us who know the rules, the statutes, and the caselaw, explain things.

Last edited by ChevySpoons; 01-13-2017 at 01:11 AM..
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:51 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,482,126 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Keegstra is very different from graffiti-ing a train station. Do you know the definition of hate speech in Canada? Hint: you can find it in the cases I cited.

I honestly have no idea what you are asking here. Can you be clearer?

How many prosecutors do you know? How many times have you negotiated with a Crown prosecutor? How many times have you been in court, speaking for the defense, with a Crown arguing against you? I've been there plenty of times, both in court and before Human Rights tribunals. Have you? Given that I have done all of the above, and you have given me no reason to think that you have done similarly, I think I'm in a better position to comment than you.

Until you have, perhaps you should be quiet, and let those of us who know the rules, the statutes, and the caselaw, explain things.
Yes, I know the definition of hate speech in Canada. Please don't be condescending.

I can be clear. You allege that although Canada has well-defined hate speech criminal law, Canada does not enforce that law. I have asked for a citation, an example, to support that claim. That's not difficult for a lawyer to understand, I think. And I apologize ... case law without a relevant quote from the referenced case law doesn't help ... come on eh ...

I know prosecutors, Judges, and lowly lawyers. Federal prosecutors do not practice provincially, yet I get the impression that as a federal lawyer you applied law to those federal law writings you reference. So, my question is obviously why would a federal prosecutor stop being federal and become provincial?

That doesn't make sense to me. Once a provincial lawyer, always a provincial lawyer, and once a federal lawyer, always federal ... and federal really only deals with drugs.

The next question is ... what sort of provincial lawyer enacts law if not a prosecutor. If so, perhaps we've met.

Unless you're a politician enacting 'law' and then we haven't met.

Last edited by Lieneke; 01-13-2017 at 01:25 AM..
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:02 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,482,126 times
Reputation: 4657
Hate speech grafitti on train stations is prosecuted to the same degree as politicians and teachers who promote anti-Semitism.
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Toronto
6,754 posts, read 3,774,955 times
Reputation: 4619
Question ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Simple. In the minds of WASP North America, Roman Catholics' primary allegiance is to the Pope, in Vatican City. Only secondarily, do they owe allegiance to the US or Canada. In other words, Roman Catholics will do what the Pope says before they will do what their country asks.

This was a real fear when JFK was elected President. He was a Roman Catholic--would he institute Roman Catholic policies in the United States, where they would, in some cases, conflict with the Bill of Rights? (Separation of church and state being the main worry, but there were others.) Of course, history tells us that JFK did no such thing, but nobody knew that for sure after election night in November, 1960.

Notice that I said "WASP North America." There were a number of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs) in both Canada and the US who never rose to the level of the KKK, but outside of neighbourly contacts over the back fence ("Hi, Mrs. O'Leary! Nice day, eh?") and commercial dealings ("Mr. Battaglia's market has the freshest produce"), wanted nothing to do with Catholics. I remember some of my high school buddies being told by their parents that they were not to take their girl of choice to a school dance "because she's Catholic."

That feeling is mostly gone now, and to the vast majority of WASPs, Catholics are just normal people. But the KKK and others like it, are still stuck in the 1950s on this matter.
Well then lol .
Well considering where I grew up in Toronto finding WASP was not that that common this issie did not effect my ability to get a date ... though I went to Catholic school and there a couple people that where Anglican.

I recall throwing a party in high school and the guest list got out of hand and I had people showing up that were older and that I did not know ex 5 cars full of guys from around Bathurst and Steeles, then a group of Anglo Publuc school college students from the old Weston Road area and a few Hispanic guys in college from St Clair/ Eglinton West. A lot of these guys were drinking or high by the time the came and I was getting really scared because my Russian/ Isreali guests ( many of which were not happy that their freind that brought then there was seeing Christian Arab girl as they would refer to me) were pretty mad when I had this white guy that looked like skin head show up. It also did not help that I was dating at least 3 different guys that showed up .

There were some tense moments because I had people keep on pulling me aside saying asking about who this guy was and saying they where uncomfortable. He never cause any trouble. A few of these older guys were too drunk to go home so my patents insisted they say over. It turned out the scary looking white guy that looked like a skin head was the son of a minister and left my house early sunday morning to go home and get ready for church . So he was a heavy drinker that looked as scary as hell.... but was the sweetest guy.

I think that idea ablout allegiance to the pope is funny. I think 95% of the people I went to school with were culturaly Catholic .... but not really "believers". When I tried out public school I was shocked meeting all these religious teenagers that where preaching and really active in their religions.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,320,303 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post

This was a real fear when JFK was elected President. He was a Roman Catholic--would he institute Roman Catholic policies in the United States, where they would, in some cases, conflict with the Bill of Rights? (Separation of church and state being the main worry, but there were others.) Of course, history tells us that JFK did no such thing, but nobody knew that for sure after election night in November, 1960.

.

And on the other side of the coin, it was a huge deal for many Catholics that the POTUS was a Catholic. My Acadian grandmother in the Maritimes had no real ties to the U.S. and wasn't Irish in the slightest, but she had a picture of JFK in her living room for this reason.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,320,303 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks View Post
Now I am reading about this guy ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Droege

What the heck? How did I not know about any of this ???

This people are pretty much living in/ were livinig in and around my area of the city.
In Canada there is often so much focus on Donald Trump, Octomom, Trayvon Martin, Ferguson MO and before that... the Central Park jogger, Rodney King, OJ Simpson, the Manson family, David Duke, Susan Smith, Al Sharpton, Waco TX, Iran-Contra, etc., that Canadians aren't even aware of a lot of the stuff that goes on in their own country.
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