U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 11-08-2009, 09:44 PM
 
1,645 posts, read 2,869,263 times
Reputation: 237

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robynator View Post
This is interesting.



In the USA, the American flag, from my perspective, is just everywhere. But by that I mean it's everywhere in the USA in ways you don't see the Canadian flag in Canada. Canadians generally don't have flag poles in front of their homes, but in the USA (especially in smaller towns) it's common. Very common! So coming from a place where nobody displays flags in that way, when I go to the USA, it immediately feels more patriotic because so many homes have their flag poles and their flags are waving!

I also feel that the American flag is taken way more seriously in the USA than the Canadian flag is in Canada.

But it's a part of the normal American experience. In my experience, I sang the national anthem only at school assemblees which was maybe once every month or two, but even then, I don't recall ever seeing a Canadian flag within the school classroom.

Another example of taking the flag more seriously in the USA than in Canada is when I watch sporting events in the USA. Most, if not all people hold their hands over their hearts as the flag is being raised and the anthem is being sung.

In Canada, there is no hand over heart. No hat off head. People usually just stand there and mumble out the anthem.



By contrast, the American stars and stripes has been playing a large role in the American identity for hundreds of years. It's just that much stronger as a symbol of patriotism.

When I drive down into the USA, to WA, OR, and CA... I often see the stars and stripes being worn, or available easily in stores as clothing, or as a motif for practically anything - all the way down to kitschy country crafts.

I don't think Canada has anything that equals the USA's "God Bless America".

I remember driving through country roads in the USA and seeing random signs claiming, "God Bless America". I saw it many times. I saw it on decorations. I saw it on clothing. I saw it on old truck stop signs, on church signs, and emblazed across bumper stickers. It almost makes American patriotism mythical and ethereal.

Again, what a bold statement, and to see it so frequently in the USA, it's hard not to feel that patriotism in the USA is not an almost religious experience entrenched into the identity of being American because everywhere I go, I see scenes of patriotism that are completely lacking in Canada.

Because to them, being Canadian is being NOT American. And they want you to know that they're proud that they're not American. And it makes them feel superior. I think it's idiotic.
The best thing about this post is that you wrote "being Canadian is NOT BEING AMERICAN and they want you to know they are proud they're not american. it makes them feel superior. Hence their whole superior attitude.

The snobbery is ridiculous.

But then the whole flag thing: hmmmmm

Americans FOUGHT FOR THEIR FREEDOM in A REVOLUTION. There is a history in making of the flag. There is a song that reflects the flag: over the ramparts did wave. A great mini series on HBO, John Adams, really opens the eyes to the history and the monumental risks these founding fathers made for the revolution. Does Canada have founding fathers? I forget if I learned that in my famous canadian education....

Did Canada FIGHT FOR ITS FREEDOM? No, not literally.

I think that is the difference. And that's why, despite the regional and state differences and there are many, the COUNTRY is bound by that idea of fighting for freedom.

Then and now.

It's hard to comprehend unless one lives here for a significant amount of time.

Now that I am a citizen of the USA and and not a Canuck anymore, I guess I am, by some Canuck standards, a "crazy fanatic."

So be it.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-09-2009, 12:07 PM
Status: "I'm ready for winter!!!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,990 posts, read 4,788,461 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post
I had an interesting conversation with an acquaintance of mine up in Vancouver over the weekend. It was my first chance to speak with him one-on-one, and an hour and a half later, we had solved ALL the world's problems.

Seriously, though, he's the type of guy who's not great in large groups, but terrific one-on-one. Part of our conversation had to do with US politics, Canadian politics, the inter-dependency of the economies, and all of that "fluffy stuff".

The question posed in this thread is in the title, and would be, for me, an interesting glimpse into how others feel on this issue.

I'm not quite sure how *I* feel on this particular issue at the moment, but, he made the distinction between, generally, Canadians as "nationalistic" (read: good pride in country) and Americans as "patriotic" (read: crazy fanatics). I had to press him on this because he said, in passing, that he was amazed at how Americans were so "into being American". *HALT* I've never met a group with *more* pride in their country than the Canadians that I've met in BC.

So, with that being said, the question remains. I'm very interested in hearing what other Canadians, and people, like me, who though not Canadian, do see these things, have to say on the subject. This is purely for my own edification, and I assure you all, even though this is a "touchy subject", it *can* remain civil.

Thanks in advance for your input.
This is a very interesting subject and it's one that is greatly misunderstood by many people. First of all, what is nationalism? Well nationalism is just a more advanced form of tribalism where the people are attached to their particular group or race rather than to the country it's self. Nationalism has almost always had a very negative effect on civilization and has been the cause of many wars and almost all genocides. I will give you just a few examples of "Nationalist states or movements to illustrate the point. Nazi Germany was a nationalist state and any and all crimes committed by this state were in the name of the "German Volk". All other people were considered as a lesser race of beings from the "Master race". This is an extreme case of nationalism and it exists in less extreme forms of course. Both Franco's Falange and Mussolini's Facistia in Italy were fairly extreme forms of nationalism. In nationalistic societies the good or the welfare of the national state is always supreme over the rights of the individual and in most cases if you are not a menber of this national group you have no rights at all.

Some more modern examples of nationalism are, Serbia. After the disintegration of the Yugoslavia state there arose a Pan Serbian movement headed up by Milosivic. This was a typical nationalist movement seeing that it was again based on the national group or race. In this case the Serbs. We all know what the outcome of this movement was. The attempt to recreate a greater Serbia and to punish all the minorities for the crimes commited against the Serbs,going back 500 years lead to war genocide and chaos and I might add defeat. This movement was different in that it was a left wing country and national states are usually right wing.

Ireland, all the troubles in Ireland have been of a nationalist character. We can see just how little difference there has to be in the National character for big trouble to exist. All Irishmen, but some Catholic and some Church of England.

Skinheads, All skinheads in Europe are nationalistic. Their mission is to rid their countries of those who are not ethniclly correct. That is why they are so often refered to as Neo Nazis.

There are many more examples of nationalism but I'm going to talk about just one more.

Quebec. Quebec is a nationalist state within a state. The Quebec government is even called,"The National Assembly". Now I'm not going to make any excuses for Quebec but in my mind the nationalism of Quebec is both understandable and necessary for the survival of their distinct culture. They have even passed laws that are based on what language you speak and those laws have been found unconstitutional by the supreme court of Canada. We have to bear in mind that Quebec has a French Canadian majority and that they are surrounded by 350 million English speaking North Americans and their culture is endangered by the pressure of the far greater numbers wise, culture that is always pushing into Quebec. Therefore they pass Nationalistic laws like Immigrants must educate their children in French schools, All signs must be in French. And other measures designed to protect their culture. It's afairly benign nationalism but nationalism it is for sure. There has even been attempts made to separate Quebec from Canada. These attempts have shown that their are a lot of nationalistic Quebecers who are more attached and identify more with their national group than with their country. It has been a good thing however that the majority of Quebecers have shown themselves as patriotic and have elected to stay within Canada.
Well I think that's about enough for now but I will come back later and discuss Patriotism vs Nationalism and how that has a very big effect on both the USA and Canada.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Status: "I'm ready for winter!!!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,990 posts, read 4,788,461 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post
I had an interesting conversation with an acquaintance of mine up in Vancouver over the weekend. It was my first chance to speak with him one-on-one, and an hour and a half later, we had solved ALL the world's problems.

Seriously, though, he's the type of guy who's not great in large groups, but terrific one-on-one. Part of our conversation had to do with US politics, Canadian politics, the inter-dependency of the economies, and all of that "fluffy stuff".

The question posed in this thread is in the title, and would be, for me, an interesting glimpse into how others feel on this issue.

I'm not quite sure how *I* feel on this particular issue at the moment, but, he made the distinction between, generally, Canadians as "nationalistic" (read: good pride in country) and Americans as "patriotic" (read: crazy fanatics). I had to press him on this because he said, in passing, that he was amazed at how Americans were so "into being American". *HALT* I've never met a group with *more* pride in their country than the Canadians that I've met in BC.

So, with that being said, the question remains. I'm very interested in hearing what other Canadians, and people, like me, who though not Canadian, do see these things, have to say on the subject. This is purely for my own edification, and I assure you all, even though this is a "touchy subject", it *can* remain civil.

Thanks in advance for your input.
So now "Patriotism", what is it and what is it not. How does it effect the overall politics and advancement of society in our countries. You are very right it's a "touchy Subject" and I'm probably going to say some things that will ruffle a few feathers.

Patriotism is a love and attachment to ones country based on what that country stands for. Things like freedom, democracy,equality of opportunity and other values of that sort.

I would say your observation of Canadians being very patriotic is correct. We are very proud of the principles that this country stands for and they are inclusive of all Canadians regardless of race, religion,sexual preferences and so on. This is not the way it has always been though. Before the sixties Canada was a predominitely white Anglo Saxon nation where the WASPs, of which I am one were firmly planted at the top of the social, economic and political ladder. We were proud of the fact that we, our culture, our history and our position in the society made us the rulers of the roost. We rejected foreigners and alien cultures as not being equal to ours and we resented any attempts by the government to change this situation. This in reality was not patriotism in the least by nationalism at the worst. It was a tough life for visable minorities in this country at that time. In the mid sixties we were really blessed to have a brilliant politician become the leader of this country and he lead the country for the next 18 years minus a year or so when the Conservatives managed to become the government.

Through the very wise policies of Pierre Trudeau and his government the country moved beyond this Narrow nationalism and subtle racism to eventually really embrace a multi cultural mosaic that the country is today. It has taken 40 years to get to the point where we are today and of course we have people who reject this vision of Canada and would like to be back in the time when their culture and their ethnic roots were the only ones that had any merit in "Their Country". These people would be the first to wave a flag in your face and proclaim loudly that they are proud Canadians. They are anything but that. They are proud of the Canada that was and not proud of the Canada that is. I'm happy to say that this type of person is in the big minority and thier numbers dwindle as they die off.

Now I'm going to get to how this applies to the USA and it's here that I'm going to ruffle feathers.
The USA appears on the surface to be a very patriotic country. In the last two years I have been in 46 different states and have observed the country well. Flags are flying all over the place, people proclaim their allegence to the country etc. etc. There are many true patriots in the country for sure but there are millions who proclaim their patriotism who actually in truth hate the USA. They hate what the USA really is but love the USA of their imagination. It's just like in Germany of the 20's and 30's where the ultra nationalistic Germans proclaimed an undying love for everything German or Germanic but hated the Weimar republic and loudly proclaimed that. In France there was an entire group of wealthy and influential Frenchmen who hated the liberalization of the French republic so much that they referred to their country as "The La Sloup" I had to edit that into french because the forum editor blanked out the English.

In the USA in the past 40 years there has been huge,great changes made of the same sort that have been made here in Canada. The main difference is that in the USA there is a huge minority that oppose it and will do almost anything to stop the social progress of the nation. These people are American Nationalists and there is no doubt about it at all. Their problem is that maintaining nationalism in a multi cultural country is almost impossible and doing it in a liberal country is impossible. Has it not struck you as strange that these people scream out LIBERAL as if it is some kind of Satanism?
As I have pointed out before that Nationalism is always an attachment to a group does it suprise anyone that almost all of the reactionary forces in the USA are White European desended Americans. Would it make you angry if I pointed out that they have banded together and hijacked the conservative political forces of the USA which is now the reality of the GOP. They are in the process of tearing the country down. They reject a new vision for America where they are not the top dogs. They reject democracy and call the supporters of the present government "Sheeple" because the Sheeple have the nerve to want what is in their best interests. This is American nationalism, always destructive, never progressive.

I greatly fear for the future of the USA as long as there are so many of this ideology in positions of power and influence. The election of an Afro American as president has brought them out like a hoard of angry bees.

So, did I ruffle a few feathers out there in cyberland?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 11:18 AM
 
7,656 posts, read 10,874,258 times
Reputation: 2930
Quote:
So, did I ruffle a few feathers out there in cyberland?
No, because your analysis is mostly incorrect. The comparison to Weimar Germany is too silly for words.

In any case, yes, both nations have progressed to some extent. You have empowered your previously suppressed minority the Quebecois while we have done the same with regards to African-Americans. These are good things.

At the same time, cable tv and the Internet has come out of nowhere and given everyone a chance to be heard- everyone includes the nuts you speak of. That does not mean they are going to form a new Freikorps and topple the Obama government. Good God man, we have the oldest functioning Constitution in the world. How exactly is some miscreant going to circumvent that? This ain't Venezuela.

Btw- Trudeau accomplished that by declaring marital law, sending the Canadian Army into Montreal, and detaining scores of people without charge. <A young George Bush looked up at the TV whilst ordering another bourbon>

I care neither for Liberalism nor Obama. Nonetheless, he is my President and if anyone, Canadian or otherwise, tries to mess with him, they will have to run over me first. For I am an American Patriot.

And plenty proud of it, baby.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:08 PM
Status: "I'm ready for winter!!!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,990 posts, read 4,788,461 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
No, because your analysis is mostly incorrect. The comparison to Weimar Germany is too silly for words.

In any case, yes, both nations have progressed to some extent. You have empowered your previously suppressed minority the Quebecois while we have done the same with regards to African-Americans. These are good things.

At the same time, cable tv and the Internet has come out of nowhere and given everyone a chance to be heard- everyone includes the nuts you speak of. That does not mean they are going to form a new Freikorps and topple the Obama government. Good God man, we have the oldest functioning Constitution in the world. How exactly is some miscreant going to circumvent that? This ain't Venezuela.

Btw- Trudeau accomplished that by declaring marital law, sending the Canadian Army into Montreal, and detaining scores of people without charge. <A young George Bush looked up at the TV whilst ordering another bourbon>

I care neither for Liberalism nor Obama. Nonetheless, he is my President and if anyone, Canadian or otherwise, tries to mess with him, they will have to run over me first. For I am an American Patriot.

And plenty proud of it, baby.
I don't think my comparison is too silly for words at all. It's the same interests fighting the same battle using a lot of the same methods. I see a lot of the GOP's tatics like they were taken right out of Mien Kampf. Create fear, create an enemy,"Illegals, Liberals that will destroy the country, Blacks, the poor etc. They tell BIG lies constantly. Hitler boasted that if you repeat a lie enough times people will believe it. A lot of Americans still believe that Saadam had something to do with 9\11 and was involved with Al quaida and the WMD the entire reason for going to war, where are they, I have now heard a different version of this from some goof on Fox saying, "He wanted to get WMD. The tea partiers are using a nazi tactic. Drown out any democratic debate, shout down the opposition even if they are the elected government. Obama's a commie. a socialist, a marxodemocrat, whatever that is. The nation is seriously split and no blood has flowed yet but what would happen if the USA desended into the economic conditions of the Weimar Republic? I would not be one bit suprised if there was revolution lead by the forces of the right to "take back their country" from all it's enemies.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:18 PM
 
7,656 posts, read 10,874,258 times
Reputation: 2930
Quote:
I don't think my comparison is too silly for words at all.
Sadly, they are indeed. Nothing more than vulgar Nationalism with a reliance on that ever hackneyed theme, the Nazis. Very original.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:26 PM
Status: "I'm ready for winter!!!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,990 posts, read 4,788,461 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
No, because your analysis is mostly incorrect. The comparison to Weimar Germany is too silly for words.

In any case, yes, both nations have progressed to some extent. You have empowered your previously suppressed minority the Quebecois while we have done the same with regards to African-Americans. These are good things.

At the same time, cable tv and the Internet has come out of nowhere and given everyone a chance to be heard- everyone includes the nuts you speak of. That does not mean they are going to form a new Freikorps and topple the Obama government. Good God man, we have the oldest functioning Constitution in the world. How exactly is some miscreant going to circumvent that? This ain't Venezuela.

Btw- Trudeau accomplished that by declaring marital law, sending the Canadian Army into Montreal, and detaining scores of people without charge. <A young George Bush looked up at the TV whilst ordering another bourbon>

I care neither for Liberalism nor Obama. Nonetheless, he is my President and if anyone, Canadian or otherwise, tries to mess with him, they will have to run over me first. For I am an American Patriot.

And plenty proud of it, baby.
I'm glad you are an American patriot. The country needs more like you. I would like to comment on what you said about Trudeau declaring "The war measures act". As he wrote after the fact he did not want to do it but he had no other choice. The Quebec government asked for federal help in the situation and the law of the land at that time gave him no other option. He realized at the time that the law was weak and there needed to be some other law written to enable the government to act in a limited way in future situations of this sort. If the type of thing happened today, say a Islamist terrorist situation the federal government could respond by invoking a limited state of emergency that would be far from the state of Martial law that the war measures act created. Our previously repressed minorities were a lot more than the Quebecois. Any visible minority in this country had a hard time and the introduction of hate laws stopped it dead in it's tracks. We have freedom of speech here in Canada but we do not have the freedom to spread hate in any way. This is not freedom, spreading and incouraging hate, it's a crime. I fully expect that the degree of hate I hear coming out of the USA will not abate until it's considered a crime there as well.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 06:55 PM
 
Location: British Columbia, Canada
1,855 posts, read 1,874,998 times
Reputation: 2064
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionlife View Post
Spoiler

The best thing about this post is that you wrote "being Canadian is NOT BEING AMERICAN and they want you to know they are proud they're not american. it makes them feel superior. Hence their whole superior attitude.

The snobbery is ridiculous.

But then the whole flag thing: hmmmmm

Americans FOUGHT FOR THEIR FREEDOM in A REVOLUTION. There is a history in making of the flag. There is a song that reflects the flag: over the ramparts did wave. A great mini series on HBO, John Adams, really opens the eyes to the history and the monumental risks these founding fathers made for the revolution.

Does Canada have founding fathers? I forget if I learned that in my famous canadian education....

Did Canada FIGHT FOR ITS FREEDOM? No, not literally.
Wikipedia is your friend. Here's the list of Canada's fathers of confederation, aka Canada's Founding Fathers. Canadian Confederation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

America had its' revolution, Canada had it rebellions (they're listed in that link too). I think it's understandable that you wouldn't remember since you apparently only spent your early years in Canada and have been in America for the past 24 years. I'm curious about how it is that you can claim authoritative knowledge about Canada in so many of your posts on the Canada board when you've been living in America for 24 years and have become so thoroughly indoctrinated?

I've noticed that in all of your posts on this board you have expressed great contempt for all things Canadian and I wonder if you only came to feel that way after you moved to the USA? Or was it your contempt for Canada that prompted you to disown it?

Whatever it was that caused it, I'm sorry you feel the way you do about Canada and that you feel the need to express your contemptuous views about it. However, I'm happy for you that you found a place in the south where your attitude fits in better and that you now feel you have something to be patriotic about.

.

Last edited by Zoisite; 11-10-2009 at 07:09 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Status: "I'm ready for winter!!!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,990 posts, read 4,788,461 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionlife View Post
The best thing about this post is that you wrote "being Canadian is NOT BEING AMERICAN and they want you to know they are proud they're not american. it makes them feel superior. Hence their whole superior attitude.

The snobbery is ridiculous.

But then the whole flag thing: hmmmmm

Americans FOUGHT FOR THEIR FREEDOM in A REVOLUTION. There is a history in making of the flag. There is a song that reflects the flag: over the ramparts did wave. A great mini series on HBO, John Adams, really opens the eyes to the history and the monumental risks these founding fathers made for the revolution. Does Canada have founding fathers? I forget if I learned that in my famous canadian education....

Did Canada FIGHT FOR ITS FREEDOM? No, not literally.

I think that is the difference. And that's why, despite the regional and state differences and there are many, the COUNTRY is bound by that idea of fighting for freedom.

Then and now.

It's hard to comprehend unless one lives here for a significant amount of time.

Now that I am a citizen of the USA and and not a Canuck anymore, I guess I am, by some Canuck standards, a "crazy fanatic."

So be it.
Canada did not fight for it's freedom? Do you live on this planet? There was the war of 1812 to start off with. The forces of the USA wanted to take over Canada and Canada fought to remain free. Yhere was the Boer war which was billed as a fight for freedom at the time but was just another war to keep G.B. on top of things. Then WW1 where Canada fought long and hard to preserve the freedom, Then WW2 where again Canada was there from the get go in the biggest war to preserve freedom there has ever been. Even to this day. Now I am not saying this to cast anystones at the USA at all because they eventually fought in both WW1 and WW2 but the British Commonwealth was there from the beginning and the USA only came into each of these wars for freedom when they were half over. Your observations about Canadians not fighting for freedom show a total ignorance of history.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 10:20 PM
 
4,285 posts, read 10,284,538 times
Reputation: 3695
Let's keep thing civil, folks.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top