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Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,013,815 times
Reputation: 28903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci
Still wouldn't move.
This is where it can get messy. The Orthodox man asks for a women to be moved. She refuses. He refuses to sit. The flight gets delayed. This has happened per the article I linked. Or the women moves, perhaps feeling pressured and little bit second class since she, unlike you, doesn't have a full understanding of why the man is discriminating against women.
By allowing airlines to ask to move people you give the people wanting the moves to expect it as a right. I'm not comfortable with that.
We must also remember that it's not just orthodox Jewish men that may request this. There are other sects and religions, some where it's not the fear of being accidentally touched by a women, but interacting with one.
"Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, and Islam forbids the practice of monasticism. Orange robes are generally associated with Buddhist monks. In some Buddhist cultures, and depending on vows they have taken, monks avoid interacting with women."
I'm sure the airline must have made sure that the flight attendants serving them were male as well. What if they were no male flight attendants?
The danger I see in accommodating religious beliefs where they impact or cause others to change their behaviour is in my rights, the basic human rights we all share, is impeded upon.
If you are going to live in a secular society, you have to make choices if your religion forbids certain things. If it means living in a remote area, so be it, but no ones religion is going to make me give up my rights.
Yes, you're right about ALL of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci
Women in politics!! Never, or so my great grandfather said.
This is where it can get messy. The Orthodox man asks for a women to be moved. She refuses. He refuses to sit. The flight gets delayed. This has happened per the article I linked. Or the women moves, perhaps feeling pressured and little bit second class since she, unlike you, doesn't have a full understanding of why the man is discriminating against women.
By allowing airlines to ask to move people you give the people wanting the moves to expect it as a right. I'm not comfortable with that.
We must also remember that it's not just orthodox Jewish men that may request this. There are other sects and religions, some where it's not the fear of being accidentally touched by a women, but interacting with one.
"Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, and Islam forbids the practice of monasticism. Orange robes are generally associated with Buddhist monks. In some Buddhist cultures, and depending on vows they have taken, monks avoid interacting with women."
I'm sure the airline must have made sure that the flight attendants serving them were male as well. What if they were no male flight attendants?
The danger I see in accommodating religious beliefs where they impact or cause others to change their behaviour is in my rights, the basic human rights we all share, is impeded upon.
If you are going to live in a secular society, you have to make choices if your religion forbids certain things. If it means living in a remote area, so be it, but no ones religion is going to make me give up my rights.
Well, you shouldn't have to give up your rights. And no one should be forced to give up a seat. But there is no harm in asking, although I don't see why anyone wanting a seat because they didn't want to interact with the opposite sex would actually state the reason. If that was my reason, I would keep really quiet about it. And if that person doesn't want to change seats, they certainly shouldn't be forced to. And yes, religious people have always made choices in relation to secular societies they found themselves living in. That is nothing new or strange.
And if I somehow became aware that someone was forced to sit next to me who didn't want to be there, I really wouldn't want to be sitting next to him anyway. It would make me very nervous.
But someone like that Muslim woman being yelled at by a neo Nazi because of what she was wearing that defined her as a Muslim should also not happen, ever. Her being in public was not infringing on anyone's rights.
I wonder what the statistics are for anti-Semitic/anti-Muslim incidents versus religious people in some way actually overstepping into secular territory.
Another example of religious beliefs interfering with peoples' rights is St. Boniface hospital in Winnipeg which is publicly funded. The hospital will not allow medically assisted deaths on site.
This is where it can get messy. The Orthodox man asks for a women to be moved. She refuses. He refuses to sit. The flight gets delayed. This has happened per the article I linked. Or the women moves, perhaps feeling pressured and little bit second class since she, unlike you, doesn't have a full understanding of why the man is discriminating against women.
By allowing airlines to ask to move people you give the people wanting the moves to expect it as a right. I'm not comfortable with that.
We must also remember that it's not just orthodox Jewish men that may request this. There are other sects and religions, some where it's not the fear of being accidentally touched by a women, but interacting with one.
"Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, and Islam forbids the practice of monasticism. Orange robes are generally associated with Buddhist monks. In some Buddhist cultures, and depending on vows they have taken, monks avoid interacting with women."
I'm sure the airline must have made sure that the flight attendants serving them were male as well. What if they were no male flight attendants?
The danger I see in accommodating religious beliefs where they impact or cause others to change their behaviour is in my rights, the basic human rights we all share, is impeded upon.
If you are going to live in a secular society, you have to make choices if your religion forbids certain things. If it means living in a remote area, so be it, but no ones religion is going to make me give up my rights.
The idea that religion is kind of a ''free pass'' for (most) anything is not something that is sustainable in the long term in a society like ours.
BTW my posts may give the impression that I am an anti-religion person. But I'm actually not.
You've said this several times, but sometimes there *can* be harm in asking.
There's potential harm in almost everything. When I was a teenager, I dreaded walking past construction sites because of the whistles and cat calls. I'm sure they meant no harm but when you are growing into your body, girls often feel self-conscious and really, you don't know where the harm might come from. And probably a lot of the construction workers were young men also figuring themselves out. No harm intended, but it didn't feel comfortable and if there was a long stretch of construction, I wouldn't walk past it.
As a grown up woman, the same cat calls and whistles just put an extra wiggle in my walk. Context is everything, is my point, and can't be legislated.
There's potential harm in almost everything. When I was a teenager, I dreaded walking past construction sites because of the whistles and cat calls. I'm sure they meant no harm but when you are growing into your body, girls often feel self-conscious and really, you don't know where the harm might come from. And probably a lot of the construction workers were young men also figuring themselves out. No harm intended, but it didn't feel comfortable and if there was a long stretch of construction, I wouldn't walk past it.
As a grown up woman, the same cat calls and whistles just put an extra wiggle in my walk. Context is everything, is my point, and can't be legislated.
People are waiting in line to be served by service staff.
One employee serves a whole bunch of people, but when it's the turn of a black person, he says "excuse me sir, would you mind waiting for my colleague here to serve you?" Then he proceeds to serve the next group of people, none of whom are black.
The next time the black person shows up there, the same thing happens again.
People are waiting in line to be served by service staff.
One employee serves a whole bunch of people, but when it's the turn of a black person, he says "excuse me sir, would you mind waiting for my colleague here to serve you?" Then he proceeds to serve the next group of people, none of whom are black.
The next time the black person shows up there, the same thing happens again.
Is there really "no harm" in asking in this case?
Racism and religious beliefs are two different things.
ETA: and I've never made the argument that people shouldn't do the job they have been hired for anywhere in this thread that I recall
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