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Old 05-07-2018, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
But they don't have to settle in Manitoba - almost every other place in Canada is warmer than Manitoba.
You can probably trace it back to a family or a couple of families who came to the city, who incited relatives and friends to come, and then it just mushroomed from there.


The Lebanese and Portuguese communities in the Ottawa-Gatineau area grew like this as well.
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:18 AM
 
473 posts, read 172,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
btw - thanks for bringing up 2011 stats. I just pulled 2011 data for the two CMA's. In 2011 Toronto CMA had 117K latin Americans vs Greater Montreal's 98K. In 2016 Toronto went up to 133K and Montreal up to 110K. Toronto gained 17K Latin Americans from 2011-2016 and Montreal gained 12K

National Household Survey (NHS) Profile, 2011

National Household Survey (NHS) Profile, 2011



You don't want to talk about lingustic approaches, instead you prefer ethnic origin? Fine. I can talk about anything. In this post I will demonstrate you that Montréal's Latin American community is the largest in Canada, based on ethnicity, using the numbers of Statistics Canada.


As I wrote in my second or third post in this topic, the number of Statistics Canada for Latin Americans in the category "visible minority" excludes all White Latin Amercians, as well as Black people, who fall under another category. For example, Haiti is 95% Black, and Haiti as an entire country does not fall under this category "Latin American" in Statistics Canada in general, despite the fact that Haiti is part of Latin America. This is why I was using linguistic numbers to overcome this problem. Not including Haiti is a mind-blogging failure and renders all comparison obsolete.
Also Statistics Canada never made the claim that the „visible minority Latin American population“ mirrors the entire Latin American population, that's why it's called visible minority.
This is what S.C. Says: "In contrast, in accordance with employment equity definitions, persons who reported 'Latin American' and 'White,' 'Arab' and 'White,' or 'West Asian' and 'White' have been excluded from the visible minority population. Likewise, persons who reported 'Latin American,' 'Arab' or 'West Asian' and who provided a European write-in response such as 'French' have been excluded from the visible minority population as well.“
S.C. Allows to determine the TOTAL Latin American population by using subordinate ethnic group categories, which I will do later in this post.



Scientific correctness requires that data is carefully examined and that Statistics Canada's defintions are compared with other relevant global definitions
.
Statistics Canada aligns itself with the most relevant global defintion, in all aspects, only that it separates the Latin Carribbean from Latin America, which is not done by the universal defintion.

Also, the same sources you provided state that Montréal's population of Haitian origin is 111,565, whereas in Toronto it is exactly 4,000. This is a difference of 107565 people that is totally not included in the numbers you provided! Why do you want to exclude Haiti, a Latin American country? So you wanna include Brazil, but not Haiti? Haitians are one of the largest communities in Montréal, excluding them from the category Latin American is like excluding Catonese-speakers from the category "Chinese speakers" in Vancouver. You are extremely lowering Montréal's LA community with your approach. I'm not artifically pushing Montréal's LA community up, I am mirroring it as it in reality is.


Here, now the most global prevailing defintion of what Latin American is:

"Latin America[a] is a group of countries and dependencies in the Western Hemisphere where Spanish, French and Portuguese are spoken; it is broader than the terms Ibero-America or Hispanic America. The term originated in the Napoleon III French government in the mid-19th century as Amérique latine to consider French-speaking territories in the Americas, (French Canadians, French Louisiana, French Guiana, Haiti, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint Martin, Saint Barthélemy) along with the larger group of countries where Spanish and Portuguese languages prevailed, including the Spanish-speaking portions of the United States (the Southwest and Florida.)[5] Today, areas of Canada and the United States (with the exception of Puerto Rico and Miami)[6] where Spanish, French, and Portuguese are predominant are typically not included in definitions of Latin America."

Statistics Canada obeys and follows this definition in the category "ethnic origin", with two changes: S.C. made "Carribean origin" completely separate of Latin American origin. Obviously it did so, to put Anglophones, Francophones and Hispanics in the geographical group. Also S.C. puts "Latin American" AND "Central" AND "South American" into the same category, called "Latin, Central and South American origins". Every Brazilian is a South American and a Latin American, but Guyanese people are not Latin American. Statistics Canada also does not claim that Guyanese people are Latin American, since they are included in "South America", they go align with the universal defintion above. It is important to note that putting them in the same category is not equalling them, „South, Central, Latin American“ is a subordinate term, just like North American. It lacks clarity, though.


In short: Latin America are the territories south of the US-border, where a language that derives from Latin is spoken (French, Spanish, Portuguese). Québec does not fall under this category because it is above the US-American border.

This means that the English-speaking Caribbean and Guyana are not included, because their language does not derive from a Latin language.

"Anglo-America most often refers to a region in the Americas in which English is a main language and British culture and the British Empire have had significant historical, ethnic, linguistic and cultural impact.[2] Anglo-America is distinct from Latin America, a region of the Americas where Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese and French) are prevalent."

Also in case you didn't realize, Toronto has a high number of Guyanese people that that it includes in the category "Latin, Central, South American". Also... you speak of Mexicans and Brazilians so much...
well, you might not want to like to talk with me and wanted to stop it but I think talking to me is very interesting because doing so you'll get to know many interesting information and things you didn't know so far. So, I'm going to tell you an information that is going to surprise you very much.

There are more people of Guyanese origin (56,220) in Toronto than there are of of Mexican (15,160) and Brazilian (10,240) and Arentinian (7,140) origin combined. That's all written in the same two sources you provided in your last post. In the following I will use the sources you provided for the calculation. All calculations hereby now refer to "ethnic origin" (and not language) :




I calculate now the Latin American population outside of the Carribbean of Greater Toronto:
185910 (total with Anglos & others) – 56220 (guyana) – 5630 (aboriginal) = 129690


Latin Carribbean origin:
308,425 (total with Anglos, Dutch & others) – 16,700 (bar) – 615 (bah) – 177,305 (Jamaica) – 40,340 (trinidad and tobago) – 38,965 (Anglophone/Dutch West Indies) = 34500


Toronto's total Latin American population, combining the Latin Caribbean origin-population with the one outside of it, of Latin American origin: 164190


I calculate now the Latin American population outside of the Carribbean of Grand Montréal:
113,830 (total with non NA) - 3,415 (aboriginal) – 3,120 (Guyana) = 107295

Latin Carribbean origin: 155,740 – 5,335 (barb) – 430 (bah) – 11,820 (jamaica) – 6,195 (trini) - -3,605 (west ind.(hist. British/dutch) = 128355


Montréal's total Latin American population of Latin American origin: 235630

Toronto attracts many anglophones (not a surprise because Toronto is anglophone), whereas Montréal attracts many Latin Americans.

235630 (Montréal) is larger than 164190 (Toronto).


See? That's what I have been saying all the time. Montréal has the largest Latin American population of Canada. Montréal even has by far the largest Latin Amercian population, it is
43% bigger than the one of Toronto.
Toronto's Latin American community actually is much smaller than the one of Montréal.


Montréal has 235,630 people of Latin American origin, that's 5,7% of its population.


Montréal has by far both the largest Latin American community in total numbers, as well as relative to its population. 235620 is truly impressive.

And as I said previously, Québec immigration policies ensure that Montréal will be the most Latin and most Hispanic American city for many more decades to come, because Toronto will mainly have Asian immigrants. Montréal has the largest Latin American and Hispanic community, not only in linguistic terms but also in ethnicity.

So, Montréal once again takes the crown and it is expanding its lead in being the most Hispanic, francophone and most Latin American Canadian major city all at the same time.

Sources:


National Household Survey (NHS) Profile, 2011


National Household Survey (NHS) Profile, 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
I meant people from Latin America, spanish speaking americas.
Yes, you mean Hispanics from Hispanic America. They are mainly in Montréal.
On this map you can see, that Montréal has a large Hispanic population:
Les langues immigrantes au Canada
Espagnol is Spanish in French. The rest of Canada is indeed rather South and East Asian than Québec.

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 05-07-2018 at 09:53 AM..
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Hey if it works for you and this is important to you I respect that, concomitantly I think it important that you have a more open mind about the fact that people who embrace multiculturalism do so because it is more than simply latching onto something to identify with. That said, multiculturalism IS a part of the identity in a city like Toronto - how can it not be! Toronto is about 50 years in on this and to be frank - I wouldn't fundamental change the multiculturalism of the city and i'm certainly not going to latch onto simplistic narratives 'just to be different' either.
Not sure if this is the right post to respond to (I can't seem to find a better one) but there is a lot of commentary that hints at the inevitability of multiculturalism as a reality and also as an identity marker Toronto. As if there was no way around it.


Now, I agree that at this point there is no going back and that multiculturalism will be "it", but I am not sure one can say that there was no other choice with respect to that when all of this started.


The decision to open up Canada to immigration from all four corners of the world (without much concern to race, ethnicity, religion, etc.) was not made by Toronto.


It was made by the federal government where Toronto carries about 25% of the weight. (Though also partly with the support of corporate Canada one can assume - which has somewhat more than 25% "Toronto control" IMO.)


In any event, Toronto didn't decide on its own that these millions of immigrants would descend upon the city, but it did pretty much decide how they would be welcomed and what expectations would be placed on them in terms of fitting in with Toronto/Ontario/Canada as host societies.


And for better or worse it chose to set that bar extremely low.


It could very well have set the bar higher, as other places have done.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:26 AM
 
473 posts, read 172,372 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
You just can't leave any city currently besting Toronto on something without a .... but wait and see in the near future ... Toronto is on its way th best it too.

Let Montréal have a win on something .... Go knows that no American city will but maybe NYC.

I'm waiting for you to start saying ..... Toronto will surpass NŶC in this and that.
yes, Fusion has a Toronto bias. It's okay to be passionate about a city, so I can forgive. Everyone has his or her darlings. Science and facts should be objective, though...
However, if you read my post above, you'll find out that Montréal truly has the largest Latin America community of Canada, also in ethnic terms. Proven by scientific numbers of StatisticsCanada. Because Fusion exluded the Latin Caribbean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
StatsCanada is clear that the Toronto CMA has more Latin Americans than Greater Montreal CMA. StatsCan is also clear that Toronto CMA grew by more Latin Americans in absolute numbers from 2011-2016 than Greater Montreal (17K v 12K). I already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics so what are you getting at?

As for me having to post stuff about Toronto besting other cities - NO it is often done to clarify distorted details or alternative facts and data. In the case of Hispanics - I owned up to my technical error. Now if other people could do that even a nudge that would actually be something.
No, StatsCanada does not say at all that Toronto CMA has a greater number of Latin Americans than Grand Montréal - it only states that Toronto has a greater visible minority LA population in the VM LA category,which excludes all White Latin Americans, Black Latin Americans and the entire Latin Caribbean population, and therefore your comparison, is null and void.

In my post above I have proven that using Statistic Canada's numbers for ethnic origin; that the population of ethnic Latin Americans in Montréal is over 230 000 and in Toronto are only about 160 000 ethnic Latin Americans.
I have now compared all Latin Americans in Grand Montréal with all Latin Americans in Toronto CMA, while it is you who have excluded the entire Latin Caribbean population among others.
I can admit mistakes, however, everything I wrote about Montréal and Toronto is the truth. It is is nice of you to have taken the time to also look for numbers, still you must check whether your numbers are complete, accurate and adequate for an adequate, undistorted real comparison.
Using StatisticCanada's number leads to the conclusion that Montréal does have a much larger ethnic Latin American population, compared to Toronto. Montréal's Latin American community is larger in both linguistic and ethnic terms. I'm not distoring numbers, I have chosen a scientific approach that is accurately mirroring the ethnic reality of both cities.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:00 AM
 
1,316 posts, read 2,032,062 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
But they don't have to settle in Manitoba - almost every other place in Canada is warmer than Manitoba.
It seems that at least some of them are ending up there through the Provincial Nominee Program, so they are being steered there by the Government of Manitoba. When you're hungry, you're motivated, and if you're hungry enough and Manitoba comes a-knockin', you answer the door.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:16 AM
 
Location: British Columbia ♥ 🍁 ♥
7,217 posts, read 6,572,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You can probably trace it back to a family or a couple of families who came to the city, who incited relatives and friends to come, and then it just mushroomed from there.

The Lebanese and Portuguese communities in the Ottawa-Gatineau area grew like this as well.

Likewise the Portuguese and Swedish communities in northern coastal and mid-province BC grew like that too in the 1940's. And the Sikh communities in southern coastal BC starting before the 1920's.


.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post

Strangely, Québec City now itself has become a unique city within Canada. Unique, because it is the only city without mass migration. Since all other major Canadian cities have become so diverse, they aren't special anymore.

In its case, it might just be a question of time, though.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Canada
3,899 posts, read 2,725,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
It seems that at least some of them are ending up there through the Provincial Nominee Program, so they are being steered there by the Government of Manitoba. When you're hungry, you're motivated, and if you're hungry enough and Manitoba comes a-knockin', you answer the door.
I think the reason is connections. The relatively low cost of housing probably helps. From the Manitoba Nominee Program:

Quote:
The Manitoba Skilled Worker overseas category uses a points-based system to assess candidates, who may be outside of Canada. Applications are accepted from qualified skilled workers who can demonstrate a strong connection to the province through family or friends (Manitoba Support), past education or employment (Manitoba Experience), or by invitation of the MPNP (Manitoba Invitation), and who score a minimum of 60 points according to five eligibility factors: age, language proficiency, work experience, education and adaptability.
https://www.canadavisa.com/manitoba-...e-program.html

My guess is that Latin Americans in general are less likely to meet the criteria, particularly Manitoba Support and English language proficiency.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,434,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Likewise, we could say that Winnipeg is the most Filipino city in Canada, even though Toronto has five times as many Filipinos. (Vancouver may have more than Winnipeg as well.)
Oh for sure. There can be no debating this, Winnipeg is Filipino central.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post


Not sure about "socialism" (extreme or otherwise). I guess it depends on the person but Latin America is one of the world's most socialist, collectivist regions, even today.
Politics can be major division among some Latin Americans. Specially for those of us that come from countries where there was/is a lot of political violence. Some one on here once accused me of being the type of immigrant that only sticks to their own kind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I actually feel uncomfortable even apprehensive around people of my own nationality until I know what side of the political divide they are on. Very few I have met are on my side of things. When there has been violence and blood shed, sometimes it is hard to put these things aside. Religion can be another big issue. A lot of Latino evangelicals and Catholics utterly despise each other, lol.


Class is another big one. Latinos that were middle class or well off probably wont mingle with poorer Latinos. People tend to stay within their own social class even here.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
It seems that at least some of them are ending up there through the Provincial Nominee Program, so they are being steered there by the Government of Manitoba. When you're hungry, you're motivated, and if you're hungry enough and Manitoba comes a-knockin', you answer the door.
I think the program has definitely increased the numbers, but Filipinos were in Winnipeg for many decades before the program began in 1999. They were there in the 50s and 60s, and Winnipeg apparently was the first Canadian city to have a Filipino community, and most of them who were in Canada were in Manitoba in those decades and even into the 70s. From what I've read...
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