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Old 05-09-2018, 07:22 AM
 
381 posts, read 146,344 times
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there are a decent amount of Haitians in Canada, they have been actively recruiting Dominicans too in the last 5-6 years. To the point of putting ads on the news paper calling Dominicans professional that speak English to apply. Hundreds of families have migrated recently.
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not sure if this is the right post to respond to (I can't seem to find a better one) but there is a lot of commentary that hints at the inevitability of multiculturalism as a reality and also as an identity marker Toronto. As if there was no way around it.


Now, I agree that at this point there is no going back and that multiculturalism will be "it", but I am not sure one can say that there was no other choice with respect to that when all of this started.


The decision to open up Canada to immigration from all four corners of the world (without much concern to race, ethnicity, religion, etc.) was not made by Toronto.


It was made by the federal government where Toronto carries about 25% of the weight. (Though also partly with the support of corporate Canada one can assume - which has somewhat more than 25% "Toronto control" IMO.)


In any event, Toronto didn't decide on its own that these millions of immigrants would descend upon the city, but it did pretty much decide how they would be welcomed and what expectations would be placed on them in terms of fitting in with Toronto/Ontario/Canada as host societies.


And for better or worse it chose to set that bar extremely low.


It could very well have set the bar higher, as other places have done.
whoa whoa whoa here. What exactly do you mean Toronto set the bar extremely low here? Please elaborate. As for the Federal government, I get that they opened the floodgates to immigration but people can choose ultimately where they settle in a place. Perhaps that is why T.O has the population it has.

Look at the per cap GDP of Toronto and Montreal. They are essentially the same - this in spite of Toronto having a higher number of immigrants in its representative population. Same thing with median family incomes/ I think that speaks for something. Let's be realistic as well - the larger size of the city the more it can attract talent both corporate and individual. That said, if you look at the overall GDP of the cities, the connection to the global economy and global links - Toronto is quite ahead of Montreal.

So why exactly should Toronto change course exactly? What is your beef with Toronto's multiculturalism specifically - violent crime? Conservatism? If I know I can respond as a native Torontonian using my experiences being a part of that.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-09-2018 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
yes, Fusion has a Toronto bias. It's okay to be passionate about a city, so I can forgive. Everyone has his or her darlings. Science and facts should be objective, though...
However, if you read my post above, you'll find out that Montréal truly has the largest Latin America community of Canada, also in ethnic terms. Proven by scientific numbers of StatisticsCanada. Because Fusion exluded the Latin Caribbean.
Ok now I really do think you are a certain someone lol.. Its ok dude -whatever floats your boat I guess.. As for Toronto being my 'darling' well sure i'm from here and it is a special place for me. No doubt just as AJ has a special place for French Canada and Nat has for Vancouver. I won't separate that for me re: Toronto but to make a claim I have a bias - especially a blind one is categorically untrue. If you want I can link to a Montreal vs Toronto city data vs awhile ago and I essentially had these cities tied in a post based on a bunch of criteria. Toronto isn't even my favourite city in the world so if you want to post blindly about me go ahead - i'll defend myself as well as Toronto against unfair and untrue claims. What I will do re Toronto however, and i'm one of the few people in this forum to do that - is I will counter negativity or simply incorrect conclusions about the city. I know it pretty well so why shouldn't I?

Last edited by fusion2; 05-09-2018 at 08:43 AM..
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'm fine. Really.


20 years ago the best man at my wedding was a really good friend from a reasonably "alien" culture.


A couple of years later I was the best man at his wedding which was a true ethnic mega wedding with hundreds of people. I kissed and got kissed by dozens of men I barely knew, and even learned to speak a bit of the language for the occasion as I was also the MC for the reception - in French, English and their native language.


And my contemporary self has seen kids from over 20 nationalities swim in his backyard pool over the past decade or so.


I've had as much personal exposure to different cultures as the average Toronto guy my age, I assure you.


Not sure why I have to lay out my "letters patent" in this way, but it seems like a good idea given the tone of the discussion...
Honestly AJ - I just think you have a 'thing' against certain groups. I don't know what it is or why. When you write about them it is in terms that are simply as someone reading the news - not as one who lives among them ie living in Toronto and exposed to them everyday as a part of your life. I simply can't dismiss these groups - even if they aren't as desirable to some on this forum like you, just because they are from a place you don't think they are as apt to integrate. AJ - I work, have friends with representatives from these groups ALL the time. They aren't bogeymen and no - they aren't a threat. I'm fine with Toronto the way it is and where it is going re: immigration. My biggest concern is housing affordability and overall income inequality in my city and country and that isn't a multiculturalism thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But surely you can see that these things still exist nonetheless? Even if they are just undercurrents they still play a role in shaping relationships, self-image, etc.
Well sure and every group or city or society has some things that are more a part of it than others. Objectively Toronto sees itself as highly multicultural but it isn't delusional - it actually is. It isn't negative either but it really depends on what you embrace.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-09-2018 at 08:42 AM..
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Yes, I have to agree. Toronto might have more in numbers but the Latin Ameican presence in MTL is much more palpable.
Not including Haitians yes but indeed Haiti is a Latin American country so in this the Haitian's saved BK's/QCOpec's Bacon.

As for the Latin American presence being more palpable - don't forget Toronto is a significantly larger city than Montreal so you could get a more dispersed effect. Especially in a community that isn't that large relative to others. Montreal has less large immigrant diaspora's than Toronto so Latin's are more lost among the Euro's, East/South Asian and Caribbean communities in the city not nearly to the same degree as Latin's have to contend with in YUL.

Also makes me think regardless of city what the number of undocumented is...
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Honestly AJ - I just think you have a 'thing' against certain groups. I don't know what it is or why. When you write about them it is in terms that are simply as someone reading the news - not as one who lives among them ie living in Toronto and exposed to them everyday as a part of your life. I simply can't dismiss these groups - even if they aren't as desirable to some on this forum like you, just because they are from a place you don't think they are as apt to integrate. AJ - I work, have friends with representatives from these groups ALL the time. They aren't bogeymen and no - they aren't a threat. .

Actually no I don't have an issue with any specific group. I'll let you in on a secret - the only black girlfriend I ever dated for an extended period was from that particular group that has serious problems with its young males in Toronto. She was a lovely girl (as was her entire family and entourage) in addition to being smokin' hot. A reasonably close relative of hers is actually quite famous. She actually suffered a tragic fate I later learned and it still saddens me when I think about it.


If anything in the case of Toronto and issues with that specific group it's more its members themselves that should be upset and angry about the situation, as they're the ones directly affected. Not the mass of other Torontonians.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Toronto
6,754 posts, read 3,776,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Not including Haitians yes but indeed Haiti is a Latin American country so in this the Haitian's saved BK's/QCOpec's Bacon.

As for the Latin American presence being more palpable - don't forget Toronto is a significantly larger city than Montreal so you could get a more dispersed effect. Especially in a community that isn't that large relative to others. Montreal has less large immigrant diaspora's than Toronto so Latin's are more lost among the Euro's, East/South Asian and Caribbean communities in the city not nearly to the same degree as Latin's have to contend with in YUL.

Also makes me think regardless of city what the number of undocumented is...
Re-undocumented workers in Canadians cities while I know there are likely a good amount from Latin America, let's not forget there are also loads from Europe. Unlike many people from the Latin America who usually needs visas to come to Canada, Europeans don't and for years and years the city has seen influxes of Europeans coming her for supposed vacation or to visit family and they actually end up staying here, working and not playing taxes. The construction industry is plagued with undocumented workers. It is disgusting. So before anyone out there is up and arms about undocumented Latin American's working in Canada illegally you might want to take a deeper look at another problem seeming from that fact that Europeans are doing the same thing. I am also sure there are Americans and Canadian doing this too in certain places as well. A significant difference is we are more likely to play the "just visiting/ on vacation card" a lot more effectively.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,130,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Actually no I don't have an issue with any specific group. I'll let you in on a secret - the only black girlfriend I ever dated for an extended period was from that particular group that has serious problems with its young males in Toronto. She was a lovely girl (as was her entire family and entourage) in addition to being smokin' hot. A reasonably close relative of hers is actually quite famous. She actually suffered a tragic fate I later learned and it still saddens me when I think about it.


If anything in the case of Toronto and issues with that specific group it's more its members themselves that should be upset and angry about the situation, as they're the ones directly affected. Not the mass of other Torontonians.
Well if we are referring to a specific group of blacks ie Jamaicans, I think there is a disproportionate amount of crime committed by that group. However, the overall crime rate is still pretty low within that group and even more so in the city as a whole. Your gf's issues with them are her own and I can't obviously speak for her experience but i'm sorry to hear of her fate. What I will say in the grand scheme of things, violent crime or gang activity in the city is simply not egregious enough to sound the alarm bells to start targeting immigration sanctions against any group.

When it comes to a group struggling in ANY city in our country be it Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Winnipeg rural Canada it is a combined effort to work together in order to address those issues.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well if we are referring to a specific group of blacks ie Jamaicans, I think there is a disproportionate amount of crime committed by that group. However, the overall crime rate is still pretty low within that group and even more so in the city as a whole. Your gf's issues with them are her own and I can't obviously speak for her experience but i'm sorry to hear of her fate. What I will say in the grand scheme of things, violent crime or gang activity in the city is simply not egregious enough to sound the alarm bells to start targeting immigration sanctions against any group.
.
For the record her fate wasn't related in any way to gang violence. It was purely accidental.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
whoa whoa whoa here. What exactly do you mean Toronto set the bar extremely low here? Please elaborate..

I thought I was clear but I guess not. What I meant was that Toronto(nians) could have said: if you want to be a part of our "us" you need to try and fit in with X, Y and Z. I don't know what those X, Y and Z would be... maybe liking hockey and the Argos (back then anyway), listening to Gordon Lightfoot and Shuffle Demons, watching Degrassi or The Red Green Show, reading Margaret Atwood, at least being aware of the Group of Seven painters. I honestly have no idea. What defines Toronto is so very elusive and imprecise. I guess that's probably part of the point I am making right here.


People arriving were left to their own devices to write what they want on their own personal blank slate.


I guess you probably see that as a strength. I don't necessarily see it as a strength but I won't go as far as to say it's a weakness either.


All I know is that it's extremely uncommon. Some might even say unnatural.

As I've said before I am not really sure if all of this is ever really going to lead to something uniquely Torontonian that people can actually put their finger on, or if the city's character might not simply remain diffuse for the foreseeable future.
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