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Old 05-09-2018, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
AJ what i'm saying is you can't always use representative percentages. The larger that community in absolute numbers the different the dynamics will be. You also have to look at which countries those groups come from. Some have a higher inclination to be involved in criminal activity linked with the motherland.

Well, their Montreal comparables that we are talking about aren't exactly from the land of milk and honey either. It's probably the poorest most chaotic country in the western hemisphere.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:55 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,005,567 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well if we are referring to a specific group of blacks ie Jamaicans, I think there is a disproportionate amount of crime committed by that group. However, the overall crime rate is still pretty low within that group and even more so in the city as a whole. Your gf's issues with them are her own and I can't obviously speak for her experience but i'm sorry to hear of her fate. What I will say in the grand scheme of things, violent crime or gang activity in the city is simply not egregious enough to sound the alarm bells to start targeting immigration sanctions against any group.

When it comes to a group struggling in ANY city in our country be it Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Winnipeg rural Canada it is a combined effort to work together in order to address those issues.
Not to interrupt the discussion between yourself and Acajack, but wanted to add a couple points.

I do not think immigration sanctions against any particular group will work nor change the crime rates in any meaningful way. Please note that the majority of Jamaicans that immigrate to Canada have no connections to organized crime in their home nation. Most Jamaicans that are leaving areas that are plagued with crime are doing so to escape Garrison politics and violence, rather than import it. The connections between Jamaican crime bosses and Toronto street gangs are over exaggerated to a fault.

The fact remains that most Jamaican youts or Canadians of Jamaican heritage learn how to be criminals right in Canada not Jamaica. So the question is why? That obviously is a separate topic that could span many pages, but the issue is that people do not examine the underlying reasons for the heightened violence within certain communities. That is where Acajack's point comes into play. Correct me if I am wrong but your point isnt to say that we need less immigrants, but rather that under the veil of multiculturalism alot of what happens to immigrants once they land in their adopted land gets swept under the rug. How can you have an honest discussion when all you hear is how welcoming a place is to everyone....it forces the dissenting voices that have a point to share to silence themselves and that does not lead to any healthy dialogue.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I thought I was clear but I guess not. What I meant was that Toronto(nians) could have said: if you want to be a part of our "us" you need to try and fit in with X, Y and Z. I don't know what those X, Y and Z would be... maybe liking hockey and the Argos (back then anyway), listening to Gordon Lightfoot and Shuffle Demons, watching Degrassi or The Red Green Show, reading Margaret Atwood, at least being aware of the Group of Seven painters. I honestly have no idea. What defines Toronto is so very elusive and imprecise. I guess that's probably part of the point I am making right here. .
Well in reference to sports anyway, It is fairly common to say a wide range of ethnicities go to Jays, Leafs, FC and Raptors games. Canadian Football fans are probably the most homogenously white of the major sports teams. If anything, if you want a measure of integration in the city - Go to a Raptors game! As for the rest of what you said, I think it is a fair point to say that as a society, we don't celebrate our culture as much as other groups. Do we teach about Margaret Atwood and the Group of Seven works in our schools - probably not as much as we should be. That to me has nothing to do with the immigrant. That said, you do or at least I find joy in immersing myself in the culture of lots of groups.

I'm not sure your points are really demonstrating something extraordinarily lacking to be honest. People don't feel empty or deprived here. We don't go to bed crying that there aren't more Red Green Shows on TV. As for a Toronto culture of a melding of different cultures - you actually are seeing that, particularly in the music scene but also linguistically.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
If anything, if you want a measure of integration in the city - Go to a Raptors game! .

You do know what immigrants to Toronto have really integrated into by becoming Raptors/NBA fans, don't you?
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, their Montreal comparables that we are talking about aren't exactly from the land of milk and honey either. It's probably the poorest most chaotic country in the western hemisphere.
Yeah i'm aware of that. I'm not sure what their crime rates are in Montreal vs Jamaicans in Toronto. Again though - why would anyone be losing a lot of sleep about overall crime rates in Toronto. I mean really AJ lol..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You do know what immigrants to Toronto have really integrated into by becoming Raptors/NBA fans, don't you?
No please explain - Nav Bhatia Superfan?
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:04 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,005,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You do know what immigrants to Toronto have really integrated into by becoming Raptors/NBA fans, don't you?
Integrated into the cult of perennial losers and chokers?
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well in reference to sports anyway, It is fairly common to say a wide range of ethnicities go to Jays, Leafs, FC and Raptors games. Canadian Football fans are probably the most homogenously white of the major sports teams. If anything, if you want a measure of integration in the city - Go to a Raptors game! As for the rest of what you said, I think it is a fair point to say that as a society, we don't celebrate our culture as much as other groups. Do we teach about Margaret Atwood and the Group of Seven works in our schools - probably not as much as we should be. That to me has nothing to do with the immigrant. That said, you do or at least I find joy in immersing myself in the culture of lots of groups.

I'm not sure your points are really demonstrating something extraordinarily lacking to be honest. People don't feel empty or deprived here. We don't go to bed crying that there aren't more Red Green Shows on TV. As for a Toronto culture of a melding of different cultures - you actually are seeing that, particularly in the music scene but also linguistically.
Oh, I am not "blaming" immigrants at all. They're just latching to what's there, and can't latch onto what's not there. I was just giving a bunch of examples to support my point that the way immigrants were and are integrated in Toronto is extremely open and non-coercitive.


"Welcome to Toronto. Do whatever the hell you want and you'll still be considered fully Torontonian and Canadian. Just don't break the law though."
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post

No please explain - Nav Bhatia Superfan?
A Canadian pastiche branch of the Hollywood hiphop pro sports subculture...?


Yes I know basketball was invented by a Canadian but what's uniquely Canadian about the Raptors other than the fact they're based in Toronto? They're about as uniquely Canadian as a Walmart in Etobicoke.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Integrated into the cult of perennial losers and chokers?
HAHAHAHAHA. Are you are fan of theirs BTW?
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,133,432 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Not to interrupt the discussion between yourself and Acajack, but wanted to add a couple points.

I do not think immigration sanctions against any particular group will work nor change the crime rates in any meaningful way. Please note that the majority of Jamaicans that immigrate to Canada have no connections to organized crime in their home nation. Most Jamaicans that are leaving areas that are plagued with crime are doing so to escape Garrison politics and violence, rather than import it. The connections between Jamaican crime bosses and Toronto street gangs are over exaggerated to a fault.

The fact remains that most Jamaican youts or Canadians of Jamaican heritage learn how to be criminals right in Canada not Jamaica. So the question is why? That obviously is a separate topic that could span many pages, but the issue is that people do not examine the underlying reasons for the heightened violence within certain communities. That is where Acajack's point comes into play. Correct me if I am wrong but your point isnt to say that we need less immigrants, but rather that under the veil of multiculturalism alot of what happens to immigrants once they land in their adopted land gets swept under the rug. How can you have an honest discussion when all you hear is how welcoming a place is to everyone....it forces the dissenting voices that have a point to share to silence themselves and that does not lead to any healthy dialogue.
First of all - it just always seem like Toronto is the focus of issues when it comes to multiculturalism. I really wish people would engage in a fair and balanced examination of issues across various groups in various cities in this country. Toronto just seems like an unhealthy dumping ground of critique in this forum whereby other cities seem to get a free pass. I find that interesting!

As for Jamaicans in Toronto and crime. It is a complex sociological issue. I think we both know some of the answers to that. You more than me. That said Ed, we do have many other groups including loads of visible minorities who don't seem to have such a connection to violent crime. I'm open here as you know I always am about this issue. I've been pretty front and centre on issues of racism and i'd love more than anyone for certain groups to get a big leg up. It is both sides here but I just wish Toronto wasn't the singular f*cking focus of critique. In any event, violent crime rates in T.O are very low on a per cap basis - even when compared to much smaller cities in this country let alone peer cities of similar size in the U.S

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Integrated into the cult of perennial losers and chokers?
Just underscores what I wrote above to a T.. I know you're joking but still - its pretty common among people in here to constantly talk s*it about T.O - they look for every and any excuse.
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