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Old 05-05-2018, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,776 posts, read 27,196,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post

I also think Hispanics are among the best-integrated (after francophone Europeans), they are better integrated than the Italian community. Can't complain.
I think it has a lot to do with timing as I said. The Italians came earlier, before the major changes in Quebec society that happened in the 70s. The Latinos mostly came after that, at a time when the francophones were more empowered. Had the Italians come starting in the late 80s or 90s things might have been different with them.

And even so the Italian community seems to be slowly shifting to French more and more, probably due to them having deeper and deeper roots in Montreal and rubbing shoulders with francophones over the generations, and of course the outmigration of many of those in the community who tend to the most extremely pro-English.
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Old 05-05-2018, 03:45 PM
 
470 posts, read 168,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think it has a lot to do with timing as I said. The Italians came earlier, before the major changes in Quebec society that happened in the 70s. The Latinos mostly came after that, at a time when the francophones were more empowered. Had the Italians come starting in the late 80s or 90s things might have been different with them.

And even so the Italian community seems to be slowly shifting to French more and more, probably due to them having deeper and deeper roots in Montreal and rubbing shoulders with francophones over the generations, and of course the outmigration of many of those in the community who tend to the most extremely pro-English.
Yes, indeed. Currently, there's little new influx to the Italian community. The Italian community used to be one of the largest, it still is one of them, but not so much expanding anymore. It seems like European migration, apart from France, plays no major role anymore for Québec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And of course the legacy of pervasive Catholicism.
Good point.
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Old 05-05-2018, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,081,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Correct. I doubt very much that Canada is intentionally turning away potential immigrants from its embassies and consulates in Latin America. Rather, I think that Latin Americans are not even considering Canada as a place to emigrate to. Just a guess, but I'd think that many already have friends and family in the US, so getting there would likely be more on their minds than going to Canada. Add to that the commonly-accepted myth among non-Canadians that, "Canada is a land of ice and snow, all year round," and you'll attract few people from the Latin American tropics.

That hasn't deterred immigrants from non-Western-Hemisphere places such as Asia or Africa, or even Australia, but it does seem to come into play with Latin Americans. Anecdotal only, but I think it fits: "My friends and family back in Costa Rica thought I was crazy for wanting to move to Canada," one local friend, originally from Costa Rica, told me. "They thought I'd freeze to death because of the cold." He liked it here, and did well locally, but could not convince anybody from Costa Rica to come here, because they were afraid of the cold that they thought was here. As he related it, even his retelling of experiences of summers here could not shake that belief.
From my experience Brazilians tend to be less 'turned off' by the colder weather than other Latin American groups. I believe Canada is top 1 or 2 choice for Brazilian students wanting to study abroad. In Toronto as of late, I have seen an influx of Mexicans and Brazilians here. I think as these groups grow, so will the numbers coming from those countries. Of course i'm married to a Venezuelan as you know - he actually likes the variation between hot and cold so you can't broad brush stroke everyone.

Weather aside, many of the Latin Americans I know here appreciate the qualities Canada has - number one they cite is safety and stability and they value than the cold bothers them. Nat touched on the other more intangible qualities the country has. I could only imagine how this forum would be without the likes of Chevy's and Nat's to counter balance some alternative narratives

Last edited by fusion2; 05-05-2018 at 05:17 PM..
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Old 05-05-2018, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,081,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
Toronto does not have a significant Hispanic population relative to its population.
Montréal has a fairly large and significant Hispanic population.
I've definitely seen an uptick in Mexican and Brazilians in T.O in the last few years. You say it doesn't have a large Hispanic population relative to its size but the Toronto CMA is 1.5 times the size of Montreal and greater still if you include significant cities in Toronto's sphere of influence very close to it so it would be interesting to look at numbers in absolute terms and not just relative which I did below re CMA comparisons.

So really what I was saying isn't untrue - in absolute terms Toronto and Montreal do have a lot of Hispanics. Not L.A or Chicago worthy but over 100K Hispanics isn't anything to snicker at in any metro. Another interesting point is T.O's connection to latin America in terms of flights out of Toronto - the city is well connected with them and in time I think that'll bode well for Toronto's Hispanic growth. Its definitely more on the 'radar' now than ever before and is the most 'connected' to Latin America in terms of flight connections in the country.

I just pulled this info from Stats Can from 2016
Number of Latin Americans in Toronto CMA 133K
Number of Latin Americans in Montreal CMA 110K

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...nority&TABID=1

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...GC=462&TOPIC=7

So yes - in relative terms the percentage in Montreal is higher (though CERTAINLY not earth shattering lol) than Toronto but in absolute terms Toronto has a fair size more and is without question the CMA with the highest number of Latin Americans in Canada. I find the number of Arabs 150K and Blacks 200K (presumably Caribbean and African) more significant to Montreal relative its size than Latin American. That all said, the number of South Asians and East Asians in Toronto is absolutely staggering.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-05-2018 at 05:33 PM..
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Old 05-05-2018, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,081,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Can you post some links, because what I've found so far disputes this. BC alone has 100,000 Latin Americans out of a population of 4.6 million. Quebec has 129,000 Latin Americans out of a population of 8.6 million.

Ontario has always had more than Quebec and BC.

A home abroad: Latin American presence in B.C. | The Source | Volume 18, Issue 02 - June 27

http://worldpopulationreview.com/ter...ec-population/
Nat - as always 'pouring in' a dose of reality I expanded what you said in a city v city CMA comparisons using StatsCan data.. Facts are a sticky thing - well maybe to some for others they are arbiters of the truth vs blah blah blah.
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Old 05-05-2018, 05:18 PM
 
406 posts, read 179,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
As long as the Hispanics will not integrate into the Anglo community and attend French university; as long as the Hispanics will say bonjour instead of hello and speak in French in stores; as long as the number for Spanish services will be announced not before general French instruction, it will be fine.

Well, if the numbers became as high as in Los Angeles or Miami... we certainly wouldn't be pleased.



I also think Hispanics are among the best-integrated (after francophone Europeans), they are better integrated than the Italian community. Can't complain.
Italians are a zillions times culturally closer to French, if Hispanics in Québéc are as integrated as you say it must be due to their number being insignificant, not due to cultural ties. I use to have a similar opinion as yours, and that was before I moved to Socal. Many here don't even bother with a "hello", they go straight for the "hola'. They don't assimilate to the place, the place has to assimilate to them, and this doesn't want to stay here.
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Old 05-05-2018, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,401,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_stick View Post
Italians are a zillions times culturally closer to French, if Hispanics in Québéc are as integrated as you say it must be due to their number being insignificant, not due to cultural ties. I use to have a similar opinion as yours, and that was before I moved to Socal. Many here don't even bother with a "hello", they go straight for the "hola'. They don't assimilate to the place, the place has to assimilate to them, and this doesn't want to stay here.
I have family that lives in SoCal. They are well integrated. Their kids all go to University. Some serve in the US military. Sounds like you have a major axe to grind against Hispanics.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:17 PM
 
470 posts, read 168,115 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Nat - as always 'pouring in' a dose of reality I expanded what you said in a city v city CMA comparisons using StatsCan data.. Facts are a sticky thing - well maybe to some for others they are arbiters of the truth vs blah blah blah.
In case you didn't realize - I am using Statistics Canada facts all the time!
Did you actually read my answer that I provided for Nat? Yes or No? It seems like you didn't.
So, I'm simply going to quote my answer again at the end of this message.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I've definitely seen an uptick in Mexican and Brazilians in T.O in the last few years. You say it doesn't have a large Hispanic population relative to its size but the Toronto CMA is 1.5 times the size of Montreal and greater still if you include significant cities in Toronto's sphere of influence very close to it so it would be interesting to look at numbers in absolute terms and not just relative which I did below re CMA comparisons.

So really what I was saying isn't untrue - in absolute terms Toronto and Montreal do have a lot of Hispanics. Not L.A or Chicago worthy but over 100K Hispanics isn't anything to snicker at in any metro. Another interesting point is T.O's connection to latin America in terms of flights out of Toronto - the city is well connected with them and in time I think that'll bode well for Toronto's Hispanic growth. Its definitely more on the 'radar' now than ever before and is the most 'connected' to Latin America in terms of flight connections in the country.

I just pulled this info from Stats Can from 2016
Number of Latin Americans in Toronto CMA 133K
Number of Latin Americans in Montreal CMA 110K

Census Profile, 2016 Census - Toronto [Census metropolitan area], Ontario and Ontario [Province]

Focus on Geography Series, 2016 Census - Census metropolitan area of Montréal

So yes - in relative terms the percentage in Montreal is higher (though CERTAINLY not earth shattering lol) than Toronto but in absolute terms Toronto has a fair size more and is without question the CMA with the highest number of Latin Americans in Canada. I find the number of Arabs 150K and Blacks 200K (presumably Caribbean and African) more significant to Montreal relative its size than Latin American. That all said, the number of South Asians and East Asians in Toronto is absolutely staggering.

Brazilians are not Hispanics, Brazilians are Latin American and lusophone! This topic is about Hispanics and not about Latin Americans.


Here is a definition for you what Hispanic means:
"Hispanic America contrasts with Latin America, which includes not only Hispanic America, but also Brazil." Hispanic: "Relating to Spain or to Spanish-speaking countries, especially those of Central and South America."

"In short, “Hispanic” focuses on Spanish-speaking origin. This means Spain is included, but Brazil is excluded because Brazilians speak Portuguese. “Latino” refers to people of Latin American origin. This includes Brazil and excludes Spain. Taken from: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0c5f0322c9e44 "


It was nice of you to take the time to search for numbers, but I declare your comparison null and void because you compare Latin Americans and not Hispanics.
Inserting Brazil, a country of over 200 Million inhabitants, is completely distorting a comparison that is supposed to be about Hispanics.

Also I would like to remind you, that Statistics Canada excludes Whites in the category "visible minority" for which you provdided data, and that White Latin Americans do not fall under this category and that there are many Latin Amercians who are White, even if they do not constitute the majority; also if a person feels more Canadian than Latin American, this person is neither mentioned in the category "ethnic origin".
That's why using linguistic criteria is best for a comparison.

In Greater Toronto Spanish is the main everyday language for 70,370 people, while in Grand Montréal it is for 76,680 people.
Furthermore, 280,000 in Grand Montréal know how to speak Spanish, compared to 206,000 people in Greater Toronto.

Source:
Census Profile, 2016 Census - Toronto [Census metropolitan area], Ontario and Ontario [Province]

Census Profile, 2016 Census - Montréal [Census metropolitan area], Quebec and Canada [Country]

Furthermore, this information from Statistics Canada confirms that Grand Montréal has the largest number of Hispanics:

Les langues immigrantes au Canada

So, Montréal does have the largest Hispanic community Canada's, not only relative to its size but also the biggest in total numbers.
Montréal's Hispanic community is larger than the one in Toronto. So everything I said is true.
Sorry Toronto, you can't beat Montréal, Montréal is number one in being most Hispanic.









Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
Of course, I can. I use the following definition for a Hispanic:
A person whose native or everyday language is Spanish.


I never referred to Latin Americans, the category Latin American also includes people from Brazil, a Portugese-speaking multiethnical country of over 200 million inhabitants.

I only refer to Hispanics. This topic is about Hispanics, not Latin Americans, don't forget that.

Here are my official sources from Statistics Canada for Montréal:


Les langues immigrantes au Canada

Here you can clearly see that Spanish is the second-most often spoken immigrant language in Grand Montréal, whereas East/South Asian languages dominate in Vancouver and Toronto. Spanish means Espagnol in French.


Another source for Québec:
Census Profile, 2016 Census - Quebec [Province] and Canada [Country]

32% of all Hispanic migrants of Canada live in Québec. (145 000 of 458 000)
That's more than Québec's population share within Canada, which makes Québec to have a significant Hispanic population.
So, you see, Québec and Montréal are the most Hispanic, while the rest of Canada is much less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_stick View Post
Italians are a zillions times culturally closer to French, if Hispanics in Québéc are as integrated as you say it must be due to their number being insignificant, not due to cultural ties. I use to have a similar opinion as yours, and that was before I moved to Socal. Many here don't even bother with a "hello", they go straight for the "hola'. They don't assimilate to the place, the place has to assimilate to them, and this doesn't want to stay here.
Italians did integrate into the Anglophone minority community of Montréal. Hispanics integrate into the francophone community. Hispanic migration plays no major role in Québec. We have our problems with Anglos who don't assimilate...

I agree with you that a city district has to assimilate to them (trust me, I know what I am talking about, in Montréal West Island French-speakers assimilate to Anglophones, and that within Québec...) once their numbers have surpassed a threshold. I also understand, if for example, let's imagine that all of the US was English-speaking except for California, which would be... let's say Dutch-speaking. Hispanic migration would turn California into a Hispanic state and supersede Dutch, it's only the status of English as an imperial global language that prevents SoCal from turning Hispanic. I somehow believe that SoCal will remain English in the future, even if Hispanic migration continues. Spanish can beat any language...except for English.

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 05-05-2018 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,776 posts, read 27,196,113 times
Reputation: 8567
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_stick View Post
Italians are a zillions times culturally closer to French, if Hispanics in Québéc are as integrated as you say it must be due to their number being insignificant, not due to cultural ties. I use to have a similar opinion as yours, and that was before I moved to Socal. Many here don't even bother with a "hello", they go straight for the "hola'. They don't assimilate to the place, the place has to assimilate to them, and this doesn't want to stay here.
We have retained some European characteristics and even reacquired some over the past 50 years but we are not European French simply living in America.

We are French New Worlders like the Brazilians are Portuguese New Worlders.

We for example have an indigenous element to our culture and bloodlines for many of us. Not nearly as much as Mexicans but probably moreso than Argentines for example.
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Old 05-05-2018, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,081,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
In case you didn't realize - I am using Statistics Canada facts all the time!
Did you actually read my answer that I provided for Nat? Yes or No? It seems like you didn't.
So, I'm simply going to quote my answer again at the end of this message.
Well on a technicality sure but i'll challenge you on something else about that later. First though, If you get all excited for that than by all means knock yourself out. That said, I could create a thread about Latin Americans I suppose. Sure, Brazilians speak Portuguese but just as some may enjoy underscoring how much more Hispanics mesh with French Canadian culture over English Canadian, I don't think ANYONE would make a claim that Hispanics would mesh more with French Canadians than their fellow Latin American Brazilian brethren - get real. Brazil is firmly a South American country with incredible connections to the rest of Spanish speaking Latin America. That is why it is well - Latin America and they are included.

As for number of people speaking Spanish in Greater Montreal vs Toronto CMA - i won't challenge any of that even though there are 'slightly' more people in Greater Montreal speaking Spanish as their everyday language by what - 7000K people lol... As for the greater number in Montreal able to speak Spanish i'm not surprised and wouldn't even counter that there are more cultural similarities between French Canadians and Hispanics than English Canadians. There are a fair number of French Canadians who have learned Spanish due to said links.

Anyway - i have no idea why we would 'exclude' Brazil from this subject - the Hispanic aspect is a technicality you are getting all hot and bothered about for no reason, Brazilians should be a part of the conversation - even this one.. Any look at South American would force one to ask why exclude them and i find that exclusion null and void. The OP probably would have included Brazil in the mix in retrospect. You're the one going on and on about how 'hispanic' Montreal is and getting all excited about it. Anyway why exclude Brazil - you have something against Brazilians? I find number of Latin Americans more relevant than Hispanic given the location/culture of Brazil actually.

So sure Montreal is more 'hispanic' than Toronto by a slim margin and Toronto is more Latin American by again - a slim margin. We'll see how long Montreal can hold onto that 7K lead given the growth juggernaut Toronto is. You seem to be celebrating this with gusto and probably a smile on your face BK but you'll have to let it go probably in 2 or 3 years - 7K is a itsy bitsy number and it is far from Grande.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
Here is a definition for you what Hispanic means:
"Hispanic America contrasts with Latin America, which includes not only Hispanic America, but also Brazil." Hispanic: "Relating to Spain or to Spanish-speaking countries, especially those of Central and South America."

"In short, “Hispanic” focuses on Spanish-speaking origin. This means Spain is included, but Brazil is excluded because Brazilians speak Portuguese. “Latino” refers to people of Latin American origin. This includes Brazil and excludes Spain. Taken from: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0c5f0322c9e44 "


It was nice of you to take the time to search for numbers, but I declare your comparison null and void because you compare Latin Americans and not Hispanics.
Inserting Brazil, a country of over 200 Million inhabitants, is completely distorting a comparison that is supposed to be about Hispanics.

Also I would like to remind you, that Statistics Canada excludes Whites in the category "visible minority" for which you provdided data, and that White Latin Americans do not fall under this category and that there are many Latin Amercians who are White, even if they do not constitute the majority; also if a person feels more Canadian than Latin American, this person is neither mentioned in the category "ethnic origin".
That's why using linguistic criteria is best for a comparison.

In Greater Toronto Spanish is the main everyday language for 70,370 people, while in Grand Montréal it is for 76,680 people.
Furthermore, 280,000 in Grand Montréal know how to speak Spanish, compared to 206,000 people in Greater Toronto.

Source:
Census Profile, 2016 Census - Toronto [Census metropolitan area], Ontario and Ontario [Province]

Census Profile, 2016 Census - Montréal [Census metropolitan area], Quebec and Canada [Country]

Furthermore, this information from Statistics Canada confirms that Grand Montréal has the largest number of Hispanics:

Les langues immigrantes au Canada

So, Montréal does have the largest Hispanic community Canada's, not only relative to its size but also the biggest in total numbers.
Montréal's Hispanic community is larger than the one in Toronto. So everything I said is true.
Sorry Toronto, you can't beat Montréal, Montréal is number one in being most Hispanic.
.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-05-2018 at 10:00 PM..
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