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Old 05-06-2018, 09:28 AM
 
518 posts, read 391,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post

Anyway - i have no idea why we would 'exclude' Brazil from this subject - the Hispanic aspect is a technicality you are getting all hot and bothered about for no reason, Brazilians should be a part of the conversation - even this one.. Any look at South American would force one to ask why exclude them and i find that exclusion null and void. The OP probably would have included Brazil in the mix in retrospect. You're the one going on and on about how 'hispanic' Montreal is and getting all excited about it. Anyway why exclude Brazil - you have something against Brazilians? I find number of Latin Americans more relevant than Hispanic given the location/culture of Brazil actually.

So sure Montreal is more 'hispanic' than Toronto by a slim margin and Toronto is more Latin American by again - a slim margin. We'll see how long Montreal can hold onto that 7K lead given the growth juggernaut Toronto is. You seem to be celebrating this with gusto and probably a smile on your face BK but you'll have to let it go probably in 2 or 3 years - 7K is a itsy bitsy number and it is far from Grande.
Excusez-moi? No, I don't. I love Brazilians and lusophone culture. I love it so much, that I know that it is insulting for Brazilians when they are called "Hispanics", and therefore I raise awareness that Brazilians are not Hispanic.
It is me who appreciates Brazil and points out that Brazil is culturally distinct from Hispanic America. It is you who equates Brazilians with Hispanics, which is undifferentiated.

The topic title says this topic is about Hispanics. Also Brazilians culture is at least as distinct from Hispanic America as is Québec distinct from the United States of Amercia. Portuguese culture in Brazil is heavily influenced by other cultures that were/are present in Brazil and turned Brazilian culture into another direction than Hispanic American culture. Such a large category "Latin Americans" is very undifferentiated.

Anyway, if you want to discuss with me a comparison of the Latin Amercian community: Fine. I can discuss anything and don't limit it. I will do this favor for you. I'm not running away from a comparison with Brazil. So let's do it now. So, let's shift the discussion towards a Latin American comparsion.

Again this is where you are wrong.
You claim that Greater Toronto's Latin Amercian community is larger than the one of Grand Montréal in absolute numbers. And that's wrong again. You still do not seem to know what "Hispanic" and "Latin American" means.

Montréal has the largest Latin American community within Canada, both in total numbers as well as relative to its size.

You focus on Mexicans and Brazilians, South Americans in general, and you forget that Haiti as well as many other Creole-speaking territories also belong to Latin America/South Amercica. Latin America is more than just Spanish + Portguese.
So...well if you want to include Brazilians, you also have to include Creole speakers from the Caribbean and South America.

Montréal has the largest Creole-speaking community of Canada.

In Greater Toronto 2,845 people speak Creole-languages as an main everyday language (most often spoken at home) and 16,750 people have knowledge of a Creole language.

In Grand Montréal this number is 19,975 as a main everday language and 108,785 have knowledge of a Creole language. This number (108,785) is very high because there are many people in Montréal who shifted towards French (...or English) as a main language, but still know Creole and 99% of people who know Creole will be from, or descendants, from a country where Creole is spoken. It's generally not taught as a foreign language and not learnt by others.
About 55% of Creole speakers come from The Americas, 35% from Africa and 10% from other world regions into Canada.
So, I will halve the numbers of Creole-speakers for Montréal and Toronto to exclude people.
So Toronto will have about 8500 Latin and South American Creole speakers and Montréal will have 54000. Montréal has therefore more than six times as many Creole speakers as Toronto!

Boththe number of Creole and Spanish speakers are higher both in total numbers as well as in relative numbers in Montréal. If you add Portuguese speakers to the combined total number, Montréal's Latin American community is still larger than Toronto's Latin American community in total numbers.

See, Creole languages in Statistics Canada:

Census Profile, 2016 Census - Toronto [Census metropolitan area], Ontario and Ontario [Province]

Census Profile, 2016 Census - Montréal [Census metropolitan area], Quebec and Canada [Country]






Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post

To elaborate on the Wikipedia article that you (or was it Huffpo?) took your definition from, Brazil would apparently be considered to be included:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_America

"...........Hispanic America (Spanish: Hispanoamérica, or América hispana), also known as Spanish America (Spanish: América española), is the region comprising the Spanish-speaking nations in the Americas.

These countries have significant commonalities with each other and with Spain, its former European metropolis. In all of these countries, Spanish is the main language, sometimes sharing official status with one or more indigenous languages (such as Guaraní, Quechua, Aymara, or Mayan), or English (in Puerto Rico). Catholic Christianity is the predominant religion.
Hispanic America is sometimes grouped together with Brazil under the term "Ibero-America", meaning those countries in the Americas with cultural roots in the Iberian Peninsula. Hispanic America also contrasts with Latin America, which includes not only Hispanic America, but also Brazil, as well as the former French colonies in the Western Hemisphere (areas that are now in either the United States or Canada are usually excluded) ........."


.
Do you even understand the English language very well? I don't have this impression.
The articles clearly states that Hispanic America excludes Brazil, and that Ibero-America is a superordinate term that describes Latin America and Brazil.
To make an example: All of Québec and all of Canada, and all of the United States (excluding Hawaii) are part of North America, but not a single US-American state is part of Canada!
Ibero America: Brazil and Hispanic Amercia
Hispanic America: CONTRASTS = DINSTINGUISHES itself from Latin America in the aspect that territories who are not Spanish-speaking, are excluded. This means that Brazil is NOT part of Hispanic Amercia.
You should also google the English meaning of the word "contrasts".



Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
^^^
Good post Zoisite. It should be noted as well that if someone wants to cherry pick Brazil out of the equation - one could also get granular to the point of cherry picking the cultural differences between various Hispanic countries. I think most people would be fine with Latin America and including Brazil. On the topic of Brazil - i'm thinking and this is just a guess that the attraction of Toronto over Montreal and Vancouver may be linked to the sizable Portuguese diaspora (particularly Azorean) in Toronto.
You should also have extra lessons in English in understanding (...even though I think you are a native speaker...maybe you should just pay more attention when you read a text and not just agree with someone without actually having read the actual definition, only because you like his opinion...Your English is very well and you don't need extra lessons in English but you should pay attention to definitions and not read over them and then agree with a wrong statemnt), because the article clearly states that Brazilian is excluded from Hispanic Amercia and that Hispanic America CONTRASTS with Latin America ...
Brazil has not been cherry picked out. For the purpose of scientific correctness a differentiated term was used, and Hispanic is more concrete that Latin Amercian. Anyway, I did include Brazil in this post now, and did not cherry pick out other American territories, where Creole is spoken. And I have demonstrated
that Montréal Latin American community is the largest in Canada, even if you include Brazil.
Also Toronto is not going to overtake Montréal's LA community in total numbers anytime soon, because Montréal's prime source of influx-migration are among others Latin American countries, unlike in Toronto, and that's not going to change.

So, sorry Toronto, you neither have the largest Hispanic nor the largest Latin Amercian community, and not even the largest Creole community in Canada. Montréal once again takes the cro
wn

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 05-06-2018 at 10:03 AM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:49 PM
 
518 posts, read 391,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post


So sure Montreal is more 'hispanic' than Toronto by a slim margin and Toronto is more Latin American by again - a slim margin. We'll see how long Montreal can hold onto that 7K lead given the growth juggernaut Toronto is. You seem to be celebrating this with gusto and probably a smile on your face BK but you'll have to let it go probably in 2 or 3 years - 7K is a itsy bitsy number and it is far from Grande.

Just as I wrote in another topic, Québec has its own immigration policy and favors migration from among others Latin Amercian countries. Also, the Latin American gap between Montréal and Toronto is not narrowing down, instead Montréal is expanding its lead in having the largest Latin American total population, including Hispanics.
Toronto has less migration from Hispanic countries than Montréal and it won't change.
It seems like Toronto had the largest Latin America population like 20 years ago and was overtaken by Montréal.

In 2011, Greater Toronto had 73,345 people with Spanish as the main everyday language. This number has declined by 4% till 2016, to "only" 70,370 people. Some Hispanics totally/mostly assimilated and migration to outbalance this was nout enough, or went to British Columbia or Québec in this case, there's little Hispanic migration towards Toronto.

In Grand Montréal the number rose from 74,755 up to 76,680 between 2011 and 2016, an increase of 2,6%.
So if anything, Montréal will remain the most Latin American city in Canada for many decades to come and reimain the leader.

Toronto Census 2011:

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...ustom=&TABID=1

Montréal Census 2011:
Census Profile

Also the Census also shows that the number of Portugese-speakers as a main everyday language in Toronto declined by 4,8%, whereas in increased in Montréal by 5%. Creole languages remained stable in Toronto and also increased in Montréal.
Adding numbers of Spanish and Portugese-speakers and half of the Creole speakers mentioned in my post previous post, Montréal has the largest Latin American population in total numbers, as well as realtive to its size among all Canadian major urban areas. That makes Montréal the most Hispanic big city north of the US-American border.
So I guess, I can smile for many more years to come.
Anyway, Hispanics feel more welcome in Montréal because they city feels more Romance [for them].

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 05-06-2018 at 02:09 PM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
^^^
I'm not really feeling the illusion part AJ. It isn't some sort of denial or even dismissal of some practical realities of it being more tough for some groups to integrate into our society than others. It may be harder but that simply comes with the territory. Toronto is really a good example - yes there certainly are integration issues with some groups more than others. Having said that, you could say the same about other cities of comparable diversity globally.

Where the illusion is I think is more outside of Canada that portrays a city like Toronto as the most multicultural place in the universe and most harmonious and integrated as well. That stuff while in theory seems wonderful, is in practice and on the ground something most Torontonians wouldn't agree with.

We can examine the pros and cons -of integration in cities like Montreal and Toronto but at the end of the day - the question that Torontonians and really the R.O.C need to reconcile is is it all worth it. I think the answer lies in the direction and policies we have in place so you have your answer and you also have your 'distinction' that my friend goes both ways!
.
I think that we all have essential narratives that we tell ourselves in order to explain and justify our world view. The French and the Italians like to think no one can make good food except them. And that everyone else in the world eats crap and doesn't know any better. Americans like to think no one in the world enjoys true freedom except for them. Québécois think they're the only thing that distinguishes Canada from the U.S. and that you guys are exactly the same as Americans. Anglo-Canadians think the U.S. is a deeply morally flawed society and that Quebec would die without the "support" of the rest of Canada. And so on and so on.

So the supporting elements of multiculturalism (including the one that all cultures are equally desirable and easy to integrate into a western society like Canada) are important for Anglo-Canada to play along with to some degree. Given how much of its identity it has hitched to the multicultural ideal.

It's probably true that Quebec doesn't to go along with that so much given that it's mythology and identity isn't as closely linked to multiculturalism. (All of which helps to explain a number of things about this place, I suppose.)
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think the fundamental difference between the ROC and Quebec is really how much currency there is in the ROC for the illusion that all groups will fit in as easily as any other. Even in Toronto and Vancouver there is an obvious difference in how smoothly some groups have settled in vs. how other groups have.
I agree with you. I feel that ROC is using and promoting multiculturalism because it believes that MC is highly desirable. Multiculturalism is like an advertisement for ROC, like "Hey look at us! We are so diverse! That makes us so international!"
The large cities applaud and praise their MC efforts and results and situation and believe that's the right way; they believe that everyone will integrate. That's like almost no question to them.
I personally think it's too much, and has crossed a certain limit and I am happy that Québec is following another path, although Québec will also face huge problems, albeit in different forms.

Strangely, Québec City now itself has become a unique city within Canada. Unique, because it is the only city without mass migration. Since all other major Canadian cities have become so diverse, they aren't special anymore.

This is true, for example this is a passage from Québec immigration policy program for 2017-2019 and 2012-2015:
"The French language is an essential part of Québec’s distinct character and the key to effective participation in community life. Immigrants will be able to contribute to the continuity and vitality of French if they know the language and have opportunities to use it each day in the workplace, for example. Immigrants help enhance Québec’s international influence and that of its francophone community, as demonstrated by the rich contributions of French-speaking artists and creators from its ethnocultural minority groups.

People from different backgrounds have diverse knowledge and expertise that can encourage innovation and be useful to Québec. With their rich diversity, immigrants contribute to society in French, keeping Québec’s economy vibrant and ensuring the vitality of the French language. In this age of globalization, having a diversified workforce that knows many languages, including French, can be of benefit to open economies like Québec’s. This workforce creates a pool of strategic talents that society needs to remain prosperous. A diverse immigrant population also enriches the general culture and revitalizes communities. Fluency in French allows newly arrived citizens to take part in every aspect of their new home and society. Québec therefore seeks to continue attracting and selecting people and strategic talents from different parts of the globe, particularly people who speak French."

So basically, Québec migration policies revolve around "focusing on our francophone character and improving it", whereas ROC policy is more like "focusing on becoming more diverse.




Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Where the illusion is I think is more outside of Canada that portrays a city like Toronto as the most multicultural place in the universe and most harmonious and integrated as well. That stuff while in theory seems wonderful, is in practice and on the ground something most Torontonians wouldn't agree with.
I agree with you. Toronto is presented as the multicultural super city, that serves as an example for the rest of the world. I have the feeling that Toronto is trying to compete with New York, London and other major cities for the title of the world's most diverse city and perceives ethnicities as collectable. Like, "look we have 120 different ethnic groups... And in the past year we gained 30 new ethnic groups! Who else does?".
I think that Toronto and Montréal and Vancouver will have tremendous problems in future with integration, because differents groups will segregate, they already have. In Montréal, some native francophones who have lived for more than 20 years on the island, are leaving it, because it feeling alienating for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack;51816513 [B
Québécois think they're the only thing that distinguishes Canada from the U.S. [/b]and that you guys are exactly the same as Americans. Anglo-Canadians think the U.S. is a deeply morally flawed society and that Quebec would die without the "support" of the rest of Canada. And so on and so on.


It's probably true that Quebec doesn't to go along with that so much given that it's mythology and identity isn't as closely linked to multiculturalism. (All of which helps to explain a number of things about this place, I suppose.)
I had to giggle when I read that part because it reflects exactly what I am thinking and it accurately mirrors me. So, I put great emphasis emphasis on distinguishing Brazilians from Hispanics but I guess I'm not free of double standards either. For me Anglo-Canada and the U.S. always have been the same and maybe I can explain why.

For me Ontario and New York State are the "worlds that border Québec".
For me, Ontario basically is Canada and Québec, even though not officially independent, is at least in my heart a sovereign nation that somewhat happens to have the unfortunate destiny to be together with Canada... and New York State basically is US-America for me, only that it is enhanced by Los Angeles sometimes but I deem New York to be greater than LA. And together Ontario and New York State are North America for me. And this North America feels like an Anglo-nation to me.
Why do I have this feeling? Maybe that's because Montréal is roughly the same distance away from Toronto and NY and all other states and provinces are further away and mean less to me, but the thing is I associate with Anglo-American culture some from of imperialism and greatness and superlative-ness; and when I went to NYC for the first time, I had the feeling: "This is New York! The world's greatest city. The center of America. The center of the anglophone world! That's the biggest thing America has to offer. Everything else will be smaller." The same also applies to when I went Toronto, only that it is smaller than NY, but still Canada's largest city and Top 5 of North America. So, that's why they are the same to me. Also being in NY and Toronto makes me realize how incredibly different Québec is.

To your second part: true, whenever Anglo-Canadians told me that Québec does not deserve equalization payments, I told them that's the price they have to pay for having denied us independence
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think that we all have essential narratives that we tell ourselves in order to explain and justify our world view. The French and the Italians like to think no one can make good food except them. And that everyone else in the world eats crap and doesn't know any better. Americans like to think no one in the world enjoys true freedom except for them. Québécois think they're the only thing that distinguishes Canada from the U.S. and that you guys are exactly the same as Americans. Anglo-Canadians think the U.S. is a deeply morally flawed society and that Quebec would die without the "support" of the rest of Canada. And so on and so on.

So the supporting elements of multiculturalism (including the one that all cultures are equally desirable and easy to integrate into a western society like Canada) are important for Anglo-Canada to play along with to some degree. Given how much of its identity it has hitched to the multicultural ideal.

It's probably true that Quebec doesn't to go along with that so much given that it's mythology and identity isn't as closely linked to multiculturalism. (All of which helps to explain a number of things about this place, I suppose.)
I just find these narratives too easy to the point that it dumbs down a society. There may be some elements of truth within groups - maybe even large groups of a society but to just latch onto these narratives as a simple idea that needs to be absorbed in order to identify with something is dismissive in my opinion. Not only dismissive to a society, but dismissive to every individual within.

I can say of multiculturalism that you can accept the negatives of it while also embracing the positives. There are decisions whereby they are made knowing all too well that they come with challenges. Those decisions are made however because the risk and the challenges associated were outweighed by the positives. We don't have to simply 'need' it to work in order to satisfy some sort of idealism or fantasy. It works because we want to it to and when it doesn't we see what we need to do to make it work better.

I think ultimately unless you live in a multicultural society and I mean truly live in it and truly embrace it you simply will be more likely to hold the views you have on it AJ. It may be actually a way in which you can reaffirm that what you hold valued and dear has a strong foundation. Hey if it works for you and this is important to you I respect that, concomitantly I think it important that you have a more open mind about the fact that people who embrace multiculturalism do so because it is more than simply latching onto something to identify with. That said, multiculturalism IS a part of the identity in a city like Toronto - how can it not be! Toronto is about 50 years in on this and to be frank - I wouldn't fundamental change the multiculturalism of the city and i'm certainly not going to latch onto simplistic narratives 'just to be different' either.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-06-2018 at 07:14 PM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I have to disagree. The East Asian and South Asian communities in Toronto are much larger than the black community and their youth crime numbers are extremely low.

I don't think that population sizes or city sizes or even diversity correlate directly with crime rates.

Quebec City is non-diverse but has extremely low crime. Winnipeg is the same size, is more diverse but has way more crime. More than Toronto in terms of per capita rates.

There are places that are non-diverse in Canada that are 100% aboriginal that have high crime rates.

NYC is the most diverse city in the U.S. and has just about the lowest crime rate of all the major cities down there.

And no I am not afraid to walk around Toronto.
I'm not talking about the size of all groups (or even diversity and multiculturalism relative to crime), i'm talking about the size of certain groups who unfortunately have a disproportionate rate of crime relative their size. The larger those groups become the more challenges arise. As I said, throw an extra 200K at Greater Montreal of certain groups and all things being equal - let's see what happens to the crime rate.

I don't think we need to get into crime rates by groups in various cities in this AJ, but I suspect Toronto is still on the low side on a per cap basis. NYC fair to say has a higher crime rate per cap than Toronto. Just because it may be low in the U.S doesn't make it particularly low when compared to other cities around the globe including Toronto.

In terms of violent crime - Toronto isn't only extremely safe from a North American large city P.O.V - it is also low in the Canadian P.O.V
https://www.cp24.com/news/poll-despi...safe-1.3557695

I don't really see anything here that would make me more averse to multiculturalism in Toronto.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-06-2018 at 07:37 PM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post

Also the Census also shows that the number of Portugese-speakers as a main everyday language in Toronto declined by 4,8%, whereas in increased in Montréal by 5%. Creole languages remained stable in Toronto and also increased in Montréal.
Adding numbers of Spanish and Portugese-speakers and half of the Creole speakers mentioned in my post previous post, Montréal has the largest Latin American population in total numbers, as well as realtive to its size among all Canadian major urban areas. That makes Montréal the most Hispanic big city north of the US-American border.
So I guess, I can smile for many more years to come.
Anyway, Hispanics feel more welcome in Montréal because they city feels more Romance [for them].
You're doing a lot of 'spinning' here to try and inflate the Latin American number for Greater Montreal. The most relevant stat between the two cities in the Canadian Census is that Toronto CMA has 133K Latin Americans per Statistics Canada and Greater Montreal has 110K as per Statistics Canada. I think those numbers are more relevant than your Creole languages spin....

I've already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics by 7K. Let's see in the next few years what the census tells us regarding numbers of Hispanics and Latin Americans in both CMA's. I will not engage in further discussion with you about either Hispanics or Latin Americans however if you continue going on about Creole speaking people and go outside the established criteria of Hispanics and Latin Americans as per StatsCanada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
In 2011, Greater Toronto had 73,345 people with Spanish as the main everyday language. This number has declined by 4% till 2016, to "only" 70,370 people. Some Hispanics totally/mostly assimilated and migration to outbalance this was nout enough, or went to British Columbia or Québec in this case, there's little Hispanic migration towards Toronto.

In Grand Montréal the number rose from 74,755 up to 76,680 between 2011 and 2016, an increase of 2,6%.
So if anything, Montréal will remain the most Latin American city in Canada for many decades to come and reimain the leader.
I missed this in between all the verbal diarrhea. This is actually the only thing you wrote that shows any weight whatsoever in terms of stats. The numbers are so small it could be a variety of things. I wouldn't get too excited over one census to the other. Let's see what happens in the next census and take a look at census estimates in the meantime. Minus your Creole mumbo jumbo I wouldn't place money on either city having more Hispanics than the other in the next few years let alone few decades tbh.

btw - thanks for bringing up 2011 stats. I just pulled 2011 data for the two CMA's. In 2011 Toronto CMA had 117K latin Americans vs Greater Montreal's 98K. In 2016 Toronto went up to 133K and Montreal up to 110K. Toronto gained 17K Latin Americans from 2011-2016 and Montreal gained 12K

National Household Survey (NHS) Profile, 2011

National Household Survey (NHS) Profile, 2011

Last edited by fusion2; 05-06-2018 at 09:04 PM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:51 PM
 
4,087 posts, read 3,203,507 times
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
You're doing a lot of 'spinning' here to try and inflate the Latin American number for Greater Montreal. The most relevant stat between the two cities in the Canadian Census is that Toronto has 133K Latin Americans per Statistics Canada and Greater Montreal has 112K as per Statistics Canada. I think those numbers are more relevant than your Creole languages spin....

I've already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics by 7000K. Let's see in the next few years what the census tells us regarding numbers of Hispanics and Latin Americans in both CMA's. I will not engage in further discussion with you about either Hispanics or Latin Americans however if you continue going on about Creole speaking people and go outside the established criteria of Hispanics and Latin Americans as per StatsCanada.
You just can't leave any city currently besting Toronto on something without a .... but wait and see in the near future ... Toronto is on its way th best it too.

Let Montréal have a win on something .... Go knows that no American city will but maybe NYC.

I'm waiting for you to start saying ..... Toronto will surpass NŶC in this and that.
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
I agree with you. Toronto is presented as the multicultural super city, that serves as an example for the rest of the world. I have the feeling that Toronto is trying to compete with New York, London and other major cities for the title of the world's most diverse city and perceives ethnicities as collectable. Like, "look we have 120 different ethnic groups... And in the past year we gained 30 new ethnic groups! Who else does?".
I think that Toronto and Montréal and Vancouver will have tremendous problems in future with integration, because differents groups will segregate, they already have. In Montréal, some native francophones who have lived for more than 20 years on the island, are leaving it, because it feeling alienating for them.



I had to giggle when I read that part because it reflects exactly what I am thinking and it accurately mirrors me. So, I put great emphasis emphasis on distinguishing Brazilians from Hispanics but I guess I'm not free of double standards either. For me Anglo-Canada and the U.S. always have been the same and maybe I can explain why.
You were quick to point out earlier that I have an apparent issue with comprehension yet the first sentence I read above makes me come to the same conclusion re: you. I didn't say Toronto presents itself as a multicultural super city that is harmonious and fully integrated - I think that is how the world sees it. Part of it may be how it presents itself but I think a bigger part of it is that the world still for whatever reason sees Canada through rose coloured glasses.

Toronto is what it is. Objectively it is incredibly diverse and multicultural. I would even go so far as describing it as hyper diverse along the lines that few cities can match. That said, to somehow conclude that the city is 'competing' with others for most diverse or to simply add cultures to it as a 'collection' is absurd and completely misses the point of why the city attracts so many different people from around the globe.

I don't know if I am the only one - but some of the sentiment coming in regarding issues with segregation, issues with multiculturalism, over simplifying narratives is actually pretty disturbing. It is clear to me that some people simply are either completely removed from being a part of a multicultural society or they have been removed for so long out of perhaps need to reinforce their own roots as being strong. They need to draw a line in the sand and simply being dismissive about what goes on the other side of that line - undermining it in a way so it reinforces what they value. There is an arrogance and dismissiveness to it that is fundamentally not part of a positive or healthy mind set because it lacks respect for a different way.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-06-2018 at 08:19 PM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
You just can't leave any city currently besting Toronto on something without a .... but wait and see in the near future ... Toronto is on its way th best it too.

Let Montréal have a win on something .... Go knows that no American city will but maybe NYC.

I'm waiting for you to start saying ..... Toronto will surpass NŶC in this and that.
StatsCanada is clear that the Toronto CMA has more Latin Americans than Greater Montreal CMA. StatsCan is also clear that Toronto CMA grew by more Latin Americans in absolute numbers from 2011-2016 than Greater Montreal (17K v 12K). I already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics so what are you getting at? QuebecOpec adding his 'own' spin regarding Creole languages is completely distorting things, is irrelevant and null and void as he is trying to spin away StatsCanada's Latin American numbers with Voodoo magic.

Here you want me to concede something else to Montreal - well I already did earlier but I guess you missed it. As per StatsCanada - the same standardized source (ha thought you'd like that) - Greater Montreal has a greater Arab Population than the Toronto CMA - 150K vs 109K. Another thing i'll concede to Greater Montreal - Middle Eastern Cuisine is better. Happy?

Come to think of it Dave - if you go back all I said was that Montreal and Toronto had significant Latin American populations. In the Canadian context that is - which is true of both. It was another poster who decided to go all postal with that pretty neutral statement. Anyway- your bias is pretty apparent when it comes to Toronto and Montreal.

As for me having to post stuff about Toronto besting other cities - NO it is often done to clarify distorted details or alternative facts and data. In the case of Hispanics - I owned up to my technical error. Now if other people could do that even a nudge that would actually be something. What you do with my Toronto posts is look for areas of confirmation bias. When I actually concede things to other cities that they are better at, or have better examples of you completely dismiss that because those posts create dissonance against the biases you need to confirm.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-06-2018 at 09:13 PM..
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