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Anyway - i have no idea why we would 'exclude' Brazil from this subject - the Hispanic aspect is a technicality you are getting all hot and bothered about for no reason, Brazilians should be a part of the conversation - even this one.. Any look at South American would force one to ask why exclude them and i find that exclusion null and void. The OP probably would have included Brazil in the mix in retrospect. You're the one going on and on about how 'hispanic' Montreal is and getting all excited about it. Anyway why exclude Brazil - you have something against Brazilians? I find number of Latin Americans more relevant than Hispanic given the location/culture of Brazil actually.
So sure Montreal is more 'hispanic' than Toronto by a slim margin and Toronto is more Latin American by again - a slim margin. We'll see how long Montreal can hold onto that 7K lead given the growth juggernaut Toronto is. You seem to be celebrating this with gusto and probably a smile on your face BK but you'll have to let it go probably in 2 or 3 years - 7K is a itsy bitsy number and it is far from Grande.
Excusez-moi? No, I don't. I love Brazilians and lusophone culture. I love it so much, that I know that it is insulting for Brazilians when they are called "Hispanics", and therefore I raise awareness that Brazilians are not Hispanic.
It is me who appreciates Brazil and points out that Brazil is culturally distinct from Hispanic America. It is you who equates Brazilians with Hispanics, which is undifferentiated.
Anyway, if you want to discuss with me a comparison of the Latin Amercian community: Fine. I can discuss anything and don't limit it. I will do this favor for you. I'm not running away from a comparison with Brazil. So let's do it now. So, let's shift the discussion towards a Latin American comparsion.
You focus on Mexicans and Brazilians, South Americans in general, and you forget that Haiti as well as many other Creole-speaking territories also belong to Latin America/South Amercica. Latin America is more than just Spanish + Portguese.
So...well if you want to include Brazilians, you also have to includeCreole speakers from the Caribbean and South America.
In Greater Toronto 2,845 people speak Creole-languages as an main everyday language (most often spoken at home) and 16,750 people have knowledge of a Creole language.
These countries have significant commonalities with each other and with Spain, its former European metropolis. In all of these countries, Spanish is the main language, sometimes sharing official status with one or more indigenous languages (such as GuaranÃ, Quechua, Aymara, or Mayan), or English (in Puerto Rico). Catholic Christianity is the predominant religion. Hispanic America is sometimes grouped together with Brazilunder the term "Ibero-America", meaning those countries in the Americas with cultural roots in the Iberian Peninsula. Hispanic America also contrasts with Latin America, which includes not only Hispanic America, but also Brazil, as well as the former French colonies in the Western Hemisphere (areas that are now in either the United States or Canada are usually excluded) ........."
^^^
Good post Zoisite. It should be noted as well that if someone wants to cherry pick Brazil out of the equation - one could also get granular to the point of cherry picking the cultural differences between various Hispanic countries. I think most people would be fine with Latin America and including Brazil. On the topic of Brazil - i'm thinking and this is just a guess that the attraction of Toronto over Montreal and Vancouver may be linked to the sizable Portuguese diaspora (particularly Azorean) in Toronto.
So sure Montreal is more 'hispanic' than Toronto by a slim margin and Toronto is more Latin American by again - a slim margin. We'll see how long Montreal can hold onto that 7K lead given the growth juggernaut Toronto is. You seem to be celebrating this with gusto and probably a smile on your face BK but you'll have to let it go probably in 2 or 3 years - 7K is a itsy bitsy number and it is far from Grande.
^^^
I'm not really feeling the illusion part AJ. It isn't some sort of denial or even dismissal of some practical realities of it being more tough for some groups to integrate into our society than others. It may be harder but that simply comes with the territory. Toronto is really a good example - yes there certainly are integration issues with some groups more than others. Having said that, you could say the same about other cities of comparable diversity globally.
Where the illusion is I think is more outside of Canada that portrays a city like Toronto as the most multicultural place in the universe and most harmonious and integrated as well. That stuff while in theory seems wonderful, is in practice and on the ground something most Torontonians wouldn't agree with.
We can examine the pros and cons -of integration in cities like Montreal and Toronto but at the end of the day - the question that Torontonians and really the R.O.C need to reconcile is is it all worth it. I think the answer lies in the direction and policies we have in place so you have your answer and you also have your 'distinction' that my friend goes both ways!
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So the supporting elements of multiculturalism (including the one that all cultures are equally desirable and easy to integrate into a western society like Canada) are important for Anglo-Canada to play along with to some degree. Given how much of its identity it has hitched to the multicultural ideal.
It's probably true that Quebec doesn't to go along with that so much given that it's mythology and identity isn't as closely linked to multiculturalism. (All of which helps to explain a number of things about this place, I suppose.)
I think the fundamental difference between the ROC and Quebec is really how much currency there is in the ROC for the illusion that all groups will fit in as easily as any other. Even in Toronto and Vancouver there is an obvious difference in how smoothly some groups have settled in vs. how other groups have.
Where the illusion is I think is more outside of Canada that portrays a city like Toronto as the most multicultural place in the universe and most harmonious and integrated as well. That stuff while in theory seems wonderful, is in practice and on the ground something most Torontonians wouldn't agree with.
It's probably true that Quebec doesn't to go along with that so much given that it's mythology and identity isn't as closely linked to multiculturalism. (All of which helps to explain a number of things about this place, I suppose.)
I had to giggle when I read that part because it reflects exactly what I am thinking and it accurately mirrors me. So, I put great emphasis emphasis on distinguishing Brazilians from Hispanics but I guess I'm not free of double standards either. For me Anglo-Canada and the U.S. always have been the same and maybe I can explain why.
So the supporting elements of multiculturalism (including the one that all cultures are equally desirable and easy to integrate into a western society like Canada) are important for Anglo-Canada to play along with to some degree. Given how much of its identity it has hitched to the multicultural ideal.
It's probably true that Quebec doesn't to go along with that so much given that it's mythology and identity isn't as closely linked to multiculturalism. (All of which helps to explain a number of things about this place, I suppose.)
I just find these narratives too easy to the point that it dumbs down a society. There may be some elements of truth within groups - maybe even large groups of a society but to just latch onto these narratives as a simple idea that needs to be absorbed in order to identify with something is dismissive in my opinion. Not only dismissive to a society, but dismissive to every individual within.
I can say of multiculturalism that you can accept the negatives of it while also embracing the positives. There are decisions whereby they are made knowing all too well that they come with challenges. Those decisions are made however because the risk and the challenges associated were outweighed by the positives. We don't have to simply 'need' it to work in order to satisfy some sort of idealism or fantasy. It works because we want to it to and when it doesn't we see what we need to do to make it work better.
I think ultimately unless you live in a multicultural society and I mean truly live in it and truly embrace it you simply will be more likely to hold the views you have on it AJ. It may be actually a way in which you can reaffirm that what you hold valued and dear has a strong foundation. Hey if it works for you and this is important to you I respect that, concomitantly I think it important that you have a more open mind about the fact that people who embrace multiculturalism do so because it is more than simply latching onto something to identify with. That said, multiculturalism IS a part of the identity in a city like Toronto - how can it not be! Toronto is about 50 years in on this and to be frank - I wouldn't fundamental change the multiculturalism of the city and i'm certainly not going to latch onto simplistic narratives 'just to be different' either.
I have to disagree. The East Asian and South Asian communities in Toronto are much larger than the black community and their youth crime numbers are extremely low.
I don't think that population sizes or city sizes or even diversity correlate directly with crime rates.
Quebec City is non-diverse but has extremely low crime. Winnipeg is the same size, is more diverse but has way more crime. More than Toronto in terms of per capita rates.
There are places that are non-diverse in Canada that are 100% aboriginal that have high crime rates.
NYC is the most diverse city in the U.S. and has just about the lowest crime rate of all the major cities down there.
And no I am not afraid to walk around Toronto.
I'm not talking about the size of all groups (or even diversity and multiculturalism relative to crime), i'm talking about the size of certain groups who unfortunately have a disproportionate rate of crime relative their size. The larger those groups become the more challenges arise. As I said, throw an extra 200K at Greater Montreal of certain groups and all things being equal - let's see what happens to the crime rate.
I don't think we need to get into crime rates by groups in various cities in this AJ, but I suspect Toronto is still on the low side on a per cap basis. NYC fair to say has a higher crime rate per cap than Toronto. Just because it may be low in the U.S doesn't make it particularly low when compared to other cities around the globe including Toronto.
You're doing a lot of 'spinning' here to try and inflate the Latin American number for Greater Montreal. The most relevant stat between the two cities in the Canadian Census is that Toronto CMA has 133K Latin Americans per Statistics Canada and Greater Montreal has 110K as per Statistics Canada. I think those numbers are more relevant than your Creole languages spin....
I've already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics by 7K. Let's see in the next few years what the census tells us regarding numbers of Hispanics and Latin Americans in both CMA's. I will not engage in further discussion with you about either Hispanics or Latin Americans however if you continue going on about Creole speaking people and go outside the established criteria of Hispanics and Latin Americans as per StatsCanada.
I missed this in between all the verbal diarrhea. This is actually the only thing you wrote that shows any weight whatsoever in terms of stats. The numbers are so small it could be a variety of things. I wouldn't get too excited over one census to the other. Let's see what happens in the next census and take a look at census estimates in the meantime. Minus your Creole mumbo jumbo I wouldn't place money on either city having more Hispanics than the other in the next few years let alone few decades tbh.
btw - thanks for bringing up 2011 stats. I just pulled 2011 data for the two CMA's. In 2011 Toronto CMA had 117K latin Americans vs Greater Montreal's 98K. In 2016 Toronto went up to 133K and Montreal up to 110K. Toronto gained 17K Latin Americans from 2011-2016 and Montreal gained 12K
You're doing a lot of 'spinning' here to try and inflate the Latin American number for Greater Montreal. The most relevant stat between the two cities in the Canadian Census is that Toronto has 133K Latin Americans per Statistics Canada and Greater Montreal has 112K as per Statistics Canada. I think those numbers are more relevant than your Creole languages spin....
I've already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics by 7000K. Let's see in the next few years what the census tells us regarding numbers of Hispanics and Latin Americans in both CMA's. I will not engage in further discussion with you about either Hispanics or Latin Americans however if you continue going on about Creole speaking people and go outside the established criteria of Hispanics and Latin Americans as per StatsCanada.
You just can't leave any city currently besting Toronto on something without a .... but wait and see in the near future ... Toronto is on its way th best it too.
I had to giggle when I read that part because it reflects exactly what I am thinking and it accurately mirrors me. So, I put great emphasis emphasis on distinguishing Brazilians from Hispanics but I guess I'm not free of double standards either. For me Anglo-Canada and the U.S. always have been the same and maybe I can explain why.
You were quick to point out earlier that I have an apparent issue with comprehension yet the first sentence I read above makes me come to the same conclusion re: you. I didn't say Toronto presents itself as a multicultural super city that is harmonious and fully integrated - I think that is how the world sees it. Part of it may be how it presents itself but I think a bigger part of it is that the world still for whatever reason sees Canada through rose coloured glasses.
Toronto is what it is. Objectively it is incredibly diverse and multicultural. I would even go so far as describing it as hyper diverse along the lines that few cities can match. That said, to somehow conclude that the city is 'competing' with others for most diverse or to simply add cultures to it as a 'collection' is absurd and completely misses the point of why the city attracts so many different people from around the globe.
I don't know if I am the only one - but some of the sentiment coming in regarding issues with segregation, issues with multiculturalism, over simplifying narratives is actually pretty disturbing. It is clear to me that some people simply are either completely removed from being a part of a multicultural society or they have been removed for so long out of perhaps need to reinforce their own roots as being strong. They need to draw a line in the sand and simply being dismissive about what goes on the other side of that line - undermining it in a way so it reinforces what they value. There is an arrogance and dismissiveness to it that is fundamentally not part of a positive or healthy mind set because it lacks respect for a different way.
You just can't leave any city currently besting Toronto on something without a .... but wait and see in the near future ... Toronto is on its way th best it too.
I'm waiting for you to start saying ..... Toronto will surpass NŶC in this and that.
StatsCanada is clear that the Toronto CMA has more Latin Americans than Greater Montreal CMA. StatsCan is also clear that Toronto CMA grew by more Latin Americans in absolute numbers from 2011-2016 than Greater Montreal (17K v 12K). I already conceded that Greater Montreal has more Hispanics so what are you getting at? QuebecOpec adding his 'own' spin regarding Creole languages is completely distorting things, is irrelevant and null and void as he is trying to spin away StatsCanada's Latin American numbers with Voodoo magic.
Here you want me to concede something else to Montreal - well I already did earlier but I guess you missed it. As per StatsCanada - the same standardized source (ha thought you'd like that) - Greater Montreal has a greater Arab Population than the Toronto CMA - 150K vs 109K. Another thing i'll concede to Greater Montreal - Middle Eastern Cuisine is better. Happy?
Come to think of it Dave - if you go back all I said was that Montreal and Toronto had significant Latin American populations. In the Canadian context that is - which is true of both. It was another poster who decided to go all postal with that pretty neutral statement. Anyway- your bias is pretty apparent when it comes to Toronto and Montreal.
As for me having to post stuff about Toronto besting other cities - NO it is often done to clarify distorted details or alternative facts and data. In the case of Hispanics - I owned up to my technical error. Now if other people could do that even a nudge that would actually be something. What you do with my Toronto posts is look for areas of confirmation bias. When I actually concede things to other cities that they are better at, or have better examples of you completely dismiss that because those posts create dissonance against the biases you need to confirm.
Last edited by fusion2; 05-06-2018 at 09:13 PM..
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