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Old 08-11-2019, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,092 posts, read 27,555,338 times
Reputation: 8672

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
One of my prior clients is an Anglophone Montreal Jew. So is one of my tennis partners. And I am in a small NYC suburb, not NYC itself. Enough said.
Due to the historical context in which it took root, the relationship between the Ashkenazi Jewish community and francophone Quebec is mostly a story of tragic missed opportunities. I don't really think it's possible or even useful at this point to try to place the blame primarily on one side or the other. It's a bit better now though still not even close to what it could have been (when I look at how Ashkenazi Jews became fully integrated highly successful members of societies all over the world - and not just anglophone ones).

Things have been better with the Sephardim though, likely owing to the fact that they came later and that they generally speak French already. They're no different from any other contemporary ethnic community, in terms of their integration to the mainstream.
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Old 08-11-2019, 05:39 PM
 
Location: New York Area
16,174 posts, read 6,381,457 times
Reputation: 12522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Due to the historical context in which it took root, the relationship between the Ashkenazi Jewish community and francophone Quebec is mostly a story of tragic missed opportunities. I don't really think it's possible or even useful at this point to try to place the blame primarily on one side or the other. It's a bit better now though still not even close to what it could have been (when I look at how Ashkenazi Jews became fully integrated highly successful members of societies all over the world - and not just anglophone ones).
What missed opportunities? The Ashkenazi Jews integrated, opened businesses, sank roots into the community and got kicked in the teeth by the likes of Parizeau.
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Old 08-11-2019, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,670 posts, read 11,227,658 times
Reputation: 3807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Of course, some immigrants can be anti-immigrant themselves. As in "I'm in, so you can pull up the drawbridge now!"

But I never thought you were one of those. You just think that immigrants should make an effort to integrate with their new country.

And based on what I know of you, you don't think this automatically means turning your back on your old country of origin. (As we see with you - you are proud of and defend your Latin American roots, while at the same are well integrated in Canada and express support and respect for its culture.)
Expecting someone to make an 'effort' to integrate is a lot softer of a stance than I am against multiculturalism. Aside from expecting immigrants and refugees to follow Canadian laws like everyone has to, I don't know how much we can force integration beyond what is already being done. In much the same way the rest of Canada can't force Quebecers to want to identify as Canadian, or even to recognize that it is a nation, I don't know how much we can do with immigrants once they have their papers to 'feel' anymore Canadian than Quebecers do or don't.

Last edited by fusion2; 08-11-2019 at 06:03 PM..
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,724 posts, read 6,581,887 times
Reputation: 8236
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Expecting someone to make an 'effort' to integrate is a lot softer of a stance than I am against multiculturalism.
"Integrate" can be a synonym for the Borg.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,670 posts, read 11,227,658 times
Reputation: 3807
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
"Integrate" can be a synonym for the Borg.
LOL I kid you not I was thinking of the Borg in parts. I wonder if UL would bear any resemblance to Locutus
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:12 PM
Status: "El Paso in our thoughts and prayers" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Canada
4,911 posts, read 4,494,161 times
Reputation: 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Expecting someone to make an 'effort' to integrate is a lot softer of a stance than I am against multiculturalism. Aside from expecting immigrants and refugees to follow Canadian laws like everyone has to, I don't know how much we can force integration beyond what is already being done. s.
How about changing the discourse and policy of mutliculturalism? Change it to one of integration into Canada?


[quote]
Quote:
In much the same way the rest of Canada can't force Quebecers to want to identify as Canadian, or even to recognize that it is a nation,/QUOTE]
Maybe Quebec is a good example of why it is important not exclude people and integrate them? In the case of Quebec I am glad they remained who they are. It is cool having a unique nation within a nation. They after all were the first Canadians.

Quote:

I don't know how much we can do with immigrants once they have their papers to feel behave anymore Canadian than Quebecer
So you admit many immigrants don't feel Canadian. I think deep down you know I'm right.

Last edited by UrbanLuis; 08-11-2019 at 06:35 PM..
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Oakville
13 posts, read 1,176 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What missed opportunities? The Ashkenazi Jews integrated, opened businesses, sank roots into the community and got kicked in the teeth by the likes of Parizeau.
Quite right I too would really like to hear the answer to this.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Montreal
419 posts, read 277,005 times
Reputation: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What missed opportunities? The Ashkenazi Jews integrated, opened businesses, sank roots into the community and got kicked in the teeth by the likes of Parizeau.
Sadly the Ashkenazis used their capital to benefit their own ethnic clique politically and economically at the expense of the rest of Quebec, including francophones, anglophones and natives.

If they want to play by the rules and become Quebecois, we are happy to have them, but this province is not up for grabs to whoever earns the most cash.

I hear British Columbia is a much better fit for that.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,092 posts, read 27,555,338 times
Reputation: 8672
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Expecting someone to make an 'effort' to integrate is a lot softer of a stance than I am against multiculturalism. Aside from expecting immigrants and refugees to follow Canadian laws like everyone has to, I don't know how much we can force integration beyond what is already being done. In much the same way the rest of Canada can't force Quebecers to want to identify as Canadian, or even to recognize that it is a nation, I don't know how much we can do with immigrants once they have their papers to 'feel' anymore Canadian than Quebecers do or don't.
Except that Quebecers... aren't immigrants.

Inconvenient truth, I know.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,092 posts, read 27,555,338 times
Reputation: 8672
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What missed opportunities? The Ashkenazi Jews integrated, opened businesses, sank roots into the community and got kicked in the teeth by the likes of Parizeau.
Well, that's the classic "angryphone" view, anyway.

Since you and others seem to want to go there... no they did not fully integrate as Montrealers and much less Quebecers.

And I am not talking about retaining Jewish customs, practices and traditions like the Jewish people did in most any other place in the world where they settled.

I am talking about fighting tooth and nail every single attempt that francophones made to assert themselves when they were at the bottom rung of the pecking order in a place where they were the vast majority of the population. They aligned themselves with the historically socio-economically dominant WASP minority, and yes a whole bunch of other immigrant-origin communities as well. And I am not only or even primarily talking about the 1995 referendum here. I am talking about a whole bunch of events that transpired from the 1960s onward, until today.

Lest you get ants in your pants at the fact that I am raising this uncomfortable bit of history, note that I don't really blame them for doing that given the lay of the land at the time. In their shoes I might have done the exact same thing. But it is a historical fact.
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