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Old 08-27-2019, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,894 posts, read 11,380,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Immigrants also came out in droves for Ford. I never said all newer Canadians support the conservatives but many of the biggest immigrant groups to Canada do come from some of the most religious and conservative countries on earth and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Just because they come from socially repressed conservative countries does not mean they will automatically become liberal here in Canada. Remember the big issue around the sex ed curiculum in Ontario schools? That was mostly religious immigrants complaining about it.
I'm not saying that immigrants never vote conservative in droves. A lot of people including non-immigrants voted for the Conservatives in droves too in Ontario. There are times where they'll swing into power here and there, especially Provincially. I'm just saying you can't broad brush stroke immigrants views, even those from religiously conservative societies. Their views are probably as complicated as ours are. We should avoid putting them in a box. As I said a lot of them skew younger and more educated. Their views may not be representative of their society as a whole - remember they left the homeland and it isn't as if they aren't aware of liberal values in a world where internet access is widespread. Feeling and seeing repression can have an impact on you. As for the anti sex-ed curriculum demonstrations in Ontario, I don't think there is reliable correlation between how they would vote - a small probably organized group, and how most immigrants would vote.

Year over year since polling of same sex marriage support has been done, there has been a strong upsurge in support. In 1997 it was 41 percent. In 2017 it is 74 percent. That is a huge trend upwards in only 20 years. Over those 20 years, Canada has been steadily accepting immigrants at a rate that eclipses natural growth. Those immigrants are part of that overall trend. Now it is possible that there is a higher mix of them in the 26 percent that don't support it. That said, if their growth eclipses natural, and they by and large are anti gay marriage, than the trend for same sex marriage support should actually start to decrease. That has not yet happened.

What I am ultimately saying here, is that the Conservatives would probably expand their base level of support by swinging more centrally in terms of their social policy. I don't think Andrew Scheer going to a Pride Parade would automatically give him the election, but I don't think it would have hurt him at all - and it might have, just might have given him a bit of a boost. I just don't feel the Conservatives on social issues in general, are keeping pace with what is happening in Canada as a whole..

But... we will see this election. Imo the Cons should be head and shoulders in the lead and that is not happening, even with a PM whose personal support among Canadians has plunged and even with a left that is fractured between really 3 parties now.

Last edited by fusion2; 08-27-2019 at 06:14 PM..
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,894 posts, read 11,380,743 times
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https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/if-i...thers-are-too/

Quote:
Red Tories look at Scheer and his comments on same-sex marriage and we can’t quite take the measure of the man. He can’t afford that.
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,060 posts, read 4,583,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm not saying that immigrants never vote conservative in droves. A lot of people including non-immigrants voted for the Conservatives in droves too in Ontario. There are times where they'll swing into power here and there, especially Provincially. I'm just saying you can't broad brush stroke their views, even those from religiously conservative societies. Their views are probably as complicated as ours are. We should avoid putting them in a box. As I said a lot of them skew younger and more educated. Their views may not be representative of their society as a whole - remember they left the homeland and it isn't as if they aren't aware of liberal values in a world where internet access is widespread. As for the anti sex-ed curriculum demonstrations in Ontario, I don't think there is reliable correlation between how they would vote - a small probably organized group, and how most immigrants would vote.

Year over year since polling of same sex marriage support has been done, there has been a strong upsurge in support. In 1997 it was 41 percent. In 2017 it is 74 percent. That is a huge trend upwards in only 20 years. Over those 20 years, Canada has been steadily accepting immigrants at a rate that eclipses natural growth. Those immigrants are part of that overall trend. Now it is possible that there is a higher mix of them in the 26 percent that don't support it. That said, if their growth eclipses natural, and they by and large are anti gay marriage, than the trend for same sex marriage support should actually start to decrease. That has not yet happened.

What I am ultimately saying here, is that the Conservatives would probably expand their base level of support by swinging more centrally in terms of their social policy. I don't think Andrew Scheer going to a Pride Parade would automatically give him the election, but I don't think it would have hurt him at all - and it might have, just might have given him a bit of a boost. I just don't feel the Conservatives on social issues in general, are keeping pace with what is happening in Canada as a whole..

But... we will see this election. Imo the Cons should be head and shoulders in the lead and that is not happening, even with a PM whose personal support among Canadians has plunged and even with a left that is fractured between really 3 parties now.

I am not putting anyone in a box, that is what you are doing. My point was that Scheer has a lot of support and his views on gay marriage will probably not hurt him, specially not among newer Canadians. Most immigrants come here for the economic opportunties Canada provides, not because they view Canadians more socially enlightened or superior. Being that multiculturalism is official policy, we must respect what ever peoples social or religious views are. I would prefer integration but it is what it is.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,894 posts, read 11,380,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
I am not putting anyone in a box, that is what you are doing. My point was that Scheer has a lot of support and his views on gay marriage will probably not hurt him, specially not among newer Canadians. Most immigrants come here for the economic opportunties Canada provides, not because they view Canadians more socially enlightened or superior. Being that multiculturalism is official policy, we must respect what ever peoples social or religious views are. I would prefer integration but it is what it is.
I'll digress from here and agree to disagree with you.
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Old 08-28-2019, 07:39 AM
 
2,594 posts, read 2,233,683 times
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Looking back, I almost agree with Parti Quebecois' proposal of a charter of core values (along with the existing Charter of the French Language), and that there should in fact be an overarching, mainstream anglophone and/or francophone culture that sets the tone for the country. It doesn't mean that we will relentlessly "assimilate" other cultures, but rather to ensure that certain core foundational rights and values - such as tolerance, respect, individual rights, LGBTQ rights - are broadcast loud and clear to all new immigrant communities. I think Quebec probably is the only province in Canada that does this proactively and is official government policy shared by all political parties in the province.

We can all agree that immigration has been a good thing for Canada over the past 60 years. However, it's also no secret that many immigrant communities are highly segregated from mainstream society in Canada, sometimes much more so than their counterparts in the U.S. In Vancouver, you can practically get by without ever learning a word of English because almost all services are delivered in Chinese (and English depending on where you are). In many establishments and Chinese immigrant households in Canada, there is no CBC, CTV, Radio Canada, Globe and Mail, etc. - instead you have the likes of CCTV or CGTN or People's Daily (Chinese state news channels) blasting Communist Party propaganda 24/7 and actively fanning Chinese nationalism and veiled racism to those Chinese immigrants living abroad - it's grotesque and surreal to hear this kind of thing in 21st century Canada but it is the reality in many immigrant communities.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Good post BostonKid. I agree 100%.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Canada
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I vaguely recall an article I read 3 or 4 years ago where the author asserted that when a particular culture reached about 10% of a population, it begins to try to wield political power. There were other “milestones” listed on the way to 10% and I think above it but my memory is too fuzzy to recall them.

What did stick in my mind was the 10%. For that reason, I’m in favor of a diversified immigration program. I don’t want our Canadian values to be lost.

Somewhat off topic... I read today that 25% of Canadian farmers are over the age of 65. This is one occupation that could use qualified immigrants... with a technical bent as the article was discussing how our farmers were lagging behind other countries in the area of technology.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:07 PM
 
2,594 posts, read 2,233,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
I vaguely recall an article I read 3 or 4 years ago where the author asserted that when a particular culture reached about 10% of a population, it begins to try to wield political power. There were other “milestones” listed on the way to 10% and I think above it but my memory is too fuzzy to recall them.
I actually don't mind at all if say the Chinese or Korean or Arab communities participate in our local or national politics. It's actually a good thing because it forces them to integrate into mainstream discussions and forces them to abide by the established rules and customs - rule of law, free speech, individual liberty and rights.

The problem is, many immigrant communities today in Canada hardly participate at all in local or national politics. Sure you have the token Chinese or Arab M.P. from Toronto or Vancouver, but most immigrants - even when they become citizens - don't bother ever voting or staying updated with key national, mainstream issues. A large part of this has to do with cultural differences and language barriers - in these cases, the local and federal governments should make an active effort to reach and to broadcast our national conversations and core values to these segregated communities. Mandatory English-language classes for a start (Quebec is already instituting mandatory French classes - you won't be able to become permanent resident without passing B or C level French).

Failure to address these gaps, and you have situations like this in the heart of Toronto: Chinese Nationalists Crash Hongkong Democracy Rally with Luxury Cars

Last edited by bostonkid123; 08-28-2019 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,894 posts, read 11,380,743 times
Reputation: 3918
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Looking back, I almost agree with Parti Quebecois' proposal of a charter of core values (along with the existing Charter of the French Language), and that there should in fact be an overarching, mainstream anglophone and/or francophone culture that sets the tone for the country. It doesn't mean that we will relentlessly "assimilate" other cultures, but rather to ensure that certain core foundational rights and values - such as tolerance, respect, individual rights, LGBTQ rights - are broadcast loud and clear to all new immigrant communities. I think Quebec probably is the only province in Canada that does this proactively and is official government policy shared by all political parties in the province.

We can all agree that immigration has been a good thing for Canada over the past 60 years. However, it's also no secret that many immigrant communities are highly segregated from mainstream society in Canada, sometimes much more so than their counterparts in the U.S. In Vancouver, you can practically get by without ever learning a word of English because almost all services are delivered in Chinese (and English depending on where you are). In many establishments and Chinese immigrant households in Canada, there is no CBC, CTV, Radio Canada, Globe and Mail, etc. - instead you have the likes of CCTV or CGTN or People's Daily (Chinese state news channels) blasting Communist Party propaganda 24/7 and actively fanning Chinese nationalism and veiled racism to those Chinese immigrants living abroad - it's grotesque and surreal to hear this kind of thing in 21st century Canada but it is the reality in many immigrant communities.
These are not bad ideas but there is a need to roll them out into reality. That might be the tough part. Making something loud and clear is one thing - enforcing loud and clear may be something entirely different.

In terms of LGBTQ rights - I must say I have a heckuva lot more faith in the left leaning parties to make it loud and clear to immigrants about LGBTQ rights than Andrew Scheer quite frankly. That isn't just on gay rights either.

The point I was trying re gay marriage was that we haven't seen any wane in support for it, even after 20 years of a pretty aggressive immigration policy. It has only gone up, yoy.

Of course we can all agree that Canadian culture and values is something we want to uphold. We are not generally speaking, a socially conservative country, but where the difficulty will lie isn't so much coming up with better integration ideas, it is applying those into something workable and that we can collectively support. You would probably have a difficult time finding any support for example, placing a ban on public employees wearing religious symbols in English Canada.

Speaking of those Chinese household with Chinese State News Channels, is this something only Canada allows in the western world? The Chinese are immigrating to a lot of western nations, is Australia or the U.S banning these stations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
What did stick in my mind was the 10%. For that reason, I’m in favor of a diversified immigration program. I don’t want our Canadian values to be lost.
.
What does this diversified immigration program entail? I'm potentially not against in theory, I just don't really know what you mean. As they say, the devil is in the details. How would we for example, ensure that our Canadian values are not 'lost' by diversifying our immigration policies. Which groups will maintain those values and who are those that will compromise? We need something more than just, well I know a Tunisian comes from a socially conservative country, and thus is most likely to compromise Canadian values, therefore if we allow more than x number of them to immigrate, we are compromised. A gay Tunisian seeking asylum in Canada is probably not going to be a compromise delta to our values.

Last edited by fusion2; 08-28-2019 at 06:18 PM..
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,048 posts, read 2,801,820 times
Reputation: 5220
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
What does this diversified immigration program entail? I'm potentially not against in theory, I just don't really know what you mean. As they say, the devil is in the details. How would we for example, ensure that our Canadian values are not 'lost' by diversifying our immigration policies. Which groups will maintain those values and who are those that will compromise? We need something more than just, well I know a Tunisian comes from a socially conservative country, and thus is most likely to compromise Canadian values, therefore if we allow more than x number of them to immigrate, we are compromised. A gay Tunisian seeking asylum in Canada is probably not going to be a compromise delta to our values.
I don’t think we are anywhere near 10% with respect to any single cultural group which maintains a strong identity with the “mother country” beyond the first or second generation. I’d be wary if we were though. Imagine, for example, the Chinese government strongly influencing Canadian foreign policy through its propaganda efforts targeting Chinese Canadians.

One way to even out immigration would be through annual quotas set for the various areas of world. That would be a fair way to do it, assuming applicants are equally qualified. I don’t think quotas are even close to being necessary now and may never be if descendants of immigrants integrate. Long term, though, I think Canada will be seeing an overwhelming number of applications from climate refugees from around the world as certain areas become uninhabitable and fresh water becomes an issue. Not my problem though. I’ll be long dead.
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