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Old 11-19-2022, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,690 posts, read 13,984,471 times
Reputation: 4558

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
This tempest in a teapot is nothing more than a carefully crafted bit of Xi theater to wit:. "See what can happen if you dare make me even slightly uncomfortable?" This would all be for nothing more than optics.

Everything discussed between Xi and Trudeau at the so-called private meeting was a matter of public record for months, indeed, even years prior to the meeting. Trudeau has been very public in his condemnation of China for it's interference in our election process and in a variety of other instances.

Xi is attempting to put Canada in it's place due to it having taken steps to freeze out Chinese ownership or control of resource extraction, the expulsion of two scientists from a biological research facility in Manitoba, the couple of years ago Hauwei Meng Wanzhou debacle that left China smarting over a pizz-ant country treating a number of Xi's valuable puppet entities harshly.


“At the end of the day, Canada isn’t Europe or the United States and Xi knows he can take a more aggressive stance publicly. Moreover, he can use Canada as an example to other states without much in the way of consequences,”

All of this is simply theater and where better than on a very public stage. The only critique I would offer up about Trudeau's behaviour is that of him not being thoroughly rehearsed for a response to Xi's publicly upbraiding him. Trudeau should have been well prepared for that very scenario. This is after all, the leader of a country that has been very publicly threatening to invade Taiwan and cautioning everyone to keep their nose out of China's business. Trudeau under-estimated his opponent and was seemingly caught with his pants down. Had he been more interested in studying his Canada vs China portfolio and less interested in his choice of socks for the day .....

Now Canadians need to ask ourselves just how prepared are his various advisors on foreign affairs if they didn't see this coming beforehand and take appropriate steps to provide Trudeau adequate coaching so he didn't look like an errant grade fiver caught kissing Suzy in the cloak room???



This is also the country that has not been held to account by any reasonable measure of investigative freedom in the Covid -Chinese lab connection.
Factor in that Canada has through the last 3 or 4 PM's, even earlier on in Trudeau's tenure as PM, approached China with a more hushed approach to its Human rights abuses and other geopolitical issues. It was done behind closed doors. Sure, there were economic factors at play given the size of the Chinese economy but still, Trudeau is taking a strong turn in his approach with China.

So it shouldn't be without any surprise that Xi is reacting the way he is. Is Trudeau's approach the best to deal with China diplomatically. I don't think so. He also peeved off the leader of India as well, so this isn't just an isolated incident. Leveraging good diplomatic relationships with only western countries we are 'comfortable' with, isn't exactly a geopolitical win for Canada.

It is perfectly fine for a Canadian PM to stand up for Canadian interests. We should expect it but man, these missteps Trudeau keeps making is more a pattern than just something here and there. He managed to peeve off Trump as well because he can't keep his mouth closed when he should in the public domain. A man who could very well be President again before the end of Trudeau's mandate...

Last edited by fusion2; 11-19-2022 at 05:41 PM..
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Old 11-19-2022, 06:43 PM
 
1,399 posts, read 473,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Why is China so interested in Canada's elections?
China leader knows keep friends close and keep enemies closer. But first find out which one Trudeau is to Xi.

Whomever wins Xi will be meeting with in time. They are both leaders and I suspect dictator type of leaders. Xi wants to know as much as possible about all countries and their leaders.

I suspect China wants to be the next world leader but they do nothing to give aid to other countries in need so they will not be like the US. They know eventually the US will run out of funds and no longer be able to give money to other countries.
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Old 11-19-2022, 06:56 PM
 
1,606 posts, read 778,506 times
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I had worked in some of these international meetings before to earn extra pocket money in between my regular jobs. There are strict diplomatic protocols and etiquettes to observe.
At the end of a meeting between two countries, both sides must agree on what to disseminate to the press in a joint or separate communique(s). In this case of Macron and Scholtz, there was no press release at all.
~ youtube.com/watch?v=XtDtx0uW4Tc

Anyway, can't undo what the foreign press wrote about us. Thankfully, our trade with them is like 4% or even less. For the romantic hearts,
switch off the sound, as you do not need it.
you'll catch a glimse of your 51yo heartthrob Dorian Grey at @0:25.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DhZGDchngA
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Old 11-19-2022, 08:14 PM
 
22,925 posts, read 14,215,176 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Factor in that Canada has through the last 3 or 4 PM's, even earlier on in Trudeau's tenure as PM, approached China with a more hushed approach to its Human rights abuses and other geopolitical issues. It was done behind closed doors. Sure, there were economic factors at play given the size of the Chinese economy but still, Trudeau is taking a strong turn in his approach with China.

So it shouldn't be without any surprise that Xi is reacting the way he is. Is Trudeau's approach the best to deal with China diplomatically. I don't think so. He also peeved off the leader of India as well, so this isn't just an isolated incident. Leveraging good diplomatic relationships with only western countries we are 'comfortable' with, isn't exactly a geopolitical win for Canada.

It is perfectly fine for a Canadian PM to stand up for Canadian interests. We should expect it but man, these missteps Trudeau keeps making is more a pattern than just something here and there. He managed to peeve off Trump as well because he can't keep his mouth closed when he should in the public domain. A man who could very well be President again before the end of Trudeau's mandate...
I thoroughly understand Trudeau desiring to be seen as a champion for human rights but, at what cost?

One would almost think he's interviewing for a spot on some UN council or other.

Now comes the salient crux of the matter; who do we think would do a better job? Poilievre as the most likely candidate moving forward or. . ??

Our political selection process, while flawed before, has become emblematic of all that's gone wrong with it now degraded to only those seeking power for all the wrong reasons willing to throw their hats in the ring.

The truly intelligent and morally incorruptible want nothing whatsoever to do with the circus it's become.

Am I being too harsh?
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Old 11-19-2022, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,690 posts, read 13,984,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I thoroughly understand Trudeau desiring to be seen as a champion for human rights but, at what cost?

One would almost think he's interviewing for a spot on some UN council or other.

Now comes the salient crux of the matter; who do we think would do a better job? Poilievre as the most likely candidate moving forward or. . ??

Our political selection process, while flawed before, has become emblematic of all that's gone wrong with it now degraded to only those seeking power for all the wrong reasons willing to throw their hats in the ring.

The truly intelligent and morally incorruptible want nothing whatsoever to do with the circus it's become.

Am I being too harsh?
Being a champion for human rights is something noble. Idealistic. That said, do we really think Trudeau making a public display of his efforts will make a difference for human rights in China. Hardly! If anything, continuing on the policy of quiet, behind closed doors type of diplomacy would at least have potentially some small incremental gains. All Trudeau did was further peeve off Jinping to the point that that topic won't even come up again. Xi has already stated that the conditions must be set and you can be sure those will be very specific and will not be set by a Canadian agenda.

So, quite frankly i've lost complete hope in Trudeau on the foreign affairs front. He should simply resign and give his successor a decent chance to bring some credibility back to the Liberal Party. Otherwise yes, I may have zero choice but to vote for Poillevre because right now there is no other alternative to me and I still think we should vote regardless if its voting in one clown over the other.
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Old 11-19-2022, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,600 posts, read 4,400,521 times
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After the election results last year, I was fairly sure that Trudeau would retire, probably by 2024, to give his successor time to prepare for an election in 2025.
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Old 11-19-2022, 09:47 PM
 
22,925 posts, read 14,215,176 times
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Another viewpoint worthy of some consideration:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...cf2ccba7074c3f
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Old 11-19-2022, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
3,254 posts, read 2,728,431 times
Reputation: 4712
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I thoroughly understand Trudeau desiring to be seen as a champion for human rights but, at what cost?

One would almost think he's interviewing for a spot on some UN council or other.
At whatever cost it takes. He wants to be seen, by Canada and the world, as a statesman, like his father was.

Except he's not his father. His father was an exceptionally-well educated lawyer and economist, learning at places such as McGill University and the London School of Economics. Justin is a drama teacher, skiing instructor, and failed boxer.

Pierre Trudeau recognized that Canada is, at best, a middle power; unable to project the power that the US can, or the USSR (today's Russia, for all intents and purposes) could. Neither did Canada have nukes, like the UK or France or China. Pierre knew this, and trod carefully through all the diplomacy necessary to make Canada's voice heard on the world stage. He largely succeeded at making Canada a voice to be listened to in world affairs.

Justin acts as if Canada is a superpower already, on par with the US, Russia, and China. Except we're not. Neither Trudeau, nor Canada as a whole, can dictate to other countries, what is acceptable and what is not. Oh, he can try to, but when the other country says, "Go pound sand," he's got nothing to follow up with. Nukes? We have none. Trade? Sure, we've got plenty of oil, except Justin hates it, and won't allow it to go to market through multiple provinces (though, constitutionally, he could; see Constitution s. 92 (10)(a)). Diplomacy? We've got plenty of that, as long as Justin doesn't participate, because he doesn't know how to. He's too busy trying to represent Canada as a superpower that it never will be, and other world leaders are laughing at him. See, e.g. Xi Jinping.

Justin is not his father. He lacks the education, the statesmanship, and the diplomatic ability. Being a "champion of human rights" may play well in Forest Hill and Rosedale and Moore Park in Toronto, but those of us in the rest of Canada would like to see a Prime Minister that recognizes his place in Canada, and Canada's place in the rest of the world.
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Old 11-20-2022, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Toronto
13,690 posts, read 13,984,471 times
Reputation: 4558
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
At whatever cost it takes. He wants to be seen, by Canada and the world, as a statesman, like his father was.

Except he's not his father. His father was an exceptionally-well educated lawyer and economist, learning at places such as McGill University and the London School of Economics. Justin is a drama teacher, skiing instructor, and failed boxer.

Pierre Trudeau recognized that Canada is, at best, a middle power; unable to project the power that the US can, or the USSR (today's Russia, for all intents and purposes) could. Neither did Canada have nukes, like the UK or France or China. Pierre knew this, and trod carefully through all the diplomacy necessary to make Canada's voice heard on the world stage. He largely succeeded at making Canada a voice to be listened to in world affairs.

Justin acts as if Canada is a superpower already, on par with the US, Russia, and China. Except we're not. Neither Trudeau, nor Canada as a whole, can dictate to other countries, what is acceptable and what is not. Oh, he can try to, but when the other country says, "Go pound sand," he's got nothing to follow up with. Nukes? We have none. Trade? Sure, we've got plenty of oil, except Justin hates it, and won't allow it to go to market through multiple provinces (though, constitutionally, he could; see Constitution s. 92 (10)(a)). Diplomacy? We've got plenty of that, as long as Justin doesn't participate, because he doesn't know how to. He's too busy trying to represent Canada as a superpower that it never will be, and other world leaders are laughing at him. See, e.g. Xi Jinping.

Justin is not his father. He lacks the education, the statesmanship, and the diplomatic ability. Being a "champion of human rights" may play well in Forest Hill and Rosedale and Moore Park in Toronto, but those of us in the rest of Canada would like to see a Prime Minister that recognizes his place in Canada, and Canada's place in the rest of the world.
This is very well said Chevy and just digs deeper into what i was getting at but didn't in full. We have played that role of middle power well over the last half century or so. And, regardless of the PM in power whether it was Liberal or PC/Con, they all seemed to play by a similar rulebook.

We cannot project our progressive policies on countries like China. That is why the Free trade agreement with them went down the tubes a few years ago. China just wanted a Free trade agreement of goods and services. Trudeau decided he wanted progressive social elements added into the agreement and for China to follow them.

This is what fundamentally worries me about him. It's not just about education either, the guy is just tone deaf and executes poor judgment. He hasn't even leveraged Chretien or Martin - two seasoned PM's to assist him. He applies a similar approach to diplomacy with Eastern countries as he does with Western and this is pure folly and it is not good for Canada.
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Old 11-20-2022, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Toronto
13,690 posts, read 13,984,471 times
Reputation: 4558
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Another viewpoint worthy of some consideration:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...cf2ccba7074c3f
Well - quite a few of us in here don't have a lot of faith in Trudeau's diplomacy skills. So what i'm saying about this viewpoint is, in the wrong undiplomatic hands, this novel approach, could be a bad recipe
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