How integrated with the rest of Canada is Quebec? (employment, transfer)

[MimzyMusic]

It seems integrated in the sense that most Quebecois can speak English fluently as well, but then again it came very close to no longer being part of Canada.

If Quebec left Canada, wouldn't that split the country in two?

[netwit]

Originally Posted by MimzyMusic

It seems integrated in the sense that most Quebecois can speak English fluently as well, but then again it came very close to no longer being part of Canada.

If Quebec left Canada, wouldn't that split the country in two?

I don't believe Quebec will ever be an independent country. There may be some Quebecois fanatics who believe that, but I don't think older people who lived through the Rene Levesque years and what seemed to be constant talks of referendums believe that any more.

So, no, I don't think it would split the country in two. The Bloc has kind of a respectability since it moved into the federal party arena and I think that in terms of representing Quebec interests, all in all the Bloc has done a good job. I think the separatists evolved towards a place in federalism, as opposed to going outside federalism.

I think the rest of the country - English Canada - evolved as well from the bad old days - which I do remember - and when there was a lot of hostility towards Francophones in western Canada. But many of the most outspoken opponents of bilingualism that I know have children who are now adults and who took French in school and these kids see that as a good thing. The multiculturalist policies of Trudeau in which differences were celebrated helped a lot.

I am by no means an expert on Quebec politics so I wait to be corrected

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MimzyMusic

It seems integrated in the sense that most Quebecois can speak English fluently as well, but then again it came very close to no longer being part of Canada.

Well, for starters, a majority of Québécois cannot speak English and of those who do not all of them can speak it fluently. I think the figure for bilingual francophones in Quebec is something like 35%. When you count in other groups in Quebec (like anglos, aboriginals and immigrants), overall only about 40% of the entire population of the province can speak English.

For example, a guy who lives on my street is the head of occupational health and safety for the largish (250,000) city I live in. We are located in Quebec but right on the border with English-speaking Ontario. He speaks only French.

In any event, knowledge of English should not be confused with integration with the rest of Canada or even buy-in with Canadian unity and (for some) abandoning the dream of independence.

Québécois who learn English don't do so to become ''better Canadians''. They do so for practical reasons (mostly employment or travel-related).

Most Quebec separatist politicians can speak pretty good English (often better than certain federalist politicians), and in the overall population I would say there is no discernable difference in the percentage of separatists who know English and federalists who do.

You can find people who speak only French who are dead-set against separation and get all teary-eyed over their ''beau grand Canada'' (big beautiful Canada). And you can find separatists who speak and write English better than the average Anglo North American.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MimzyMusic

If Quebec left Canada, wouldn't that split the country in two?

I suppose so. The four Atlantic provinces (New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland-and-Labrador) on the east coast would be separated from Ontario by a significant stretch of independent Quebec territory.

I wouldn't be dissimilar to the situation between Alaska and the Lower 48.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by netwit

I don't believe Quebec will ever be an independent country.

I respectfully submit that the jury is still out on that. Nothing is really happening on this front politically yet support for separation is still around 40%, which is exactly where it was when the Parti Québécois government called its referendum in 1995. The separatist forces ended up with 49.4% of the vote that time.

It is true that you don't hear very many angry people venting about the issue anymore, but people's emotional attachment to the Canadian identity hasn't really grown either.

Demographically, the population is aging as it is everywhere. According to polls, people who were separatists when they were younger tend to remain so as they age. The younger generation is similar to its peers elsewhere in the Western world in its relative indifference to politics, so they don't feel the urgency of making Quebec a country. On the other hand, as I said before, most of the younger generation don't really feel they are part of the broader Canadian identity either.

Quebec's anglo population, almost unanimous in its support of remaining in Canada, appears to have stabilized after decades of decline, and may even be growing slightly. At around 8% of the population, they can make a difference in a close referendum (as they did in 1995), but in the final analysis they will never be numerous enough to prevent the French-speaking majority from opting for independence if they choose that route.

Quebec receives quite a lot of immigrants per year (40,000) for a society of 8 million people. Traditionally, they have also sided almost unanimously with Canadian unity against separation. But this has been changing a little bit. Not to the point where immigrant communities are split down the middle on the issue, but there are quite a few of them in the separatist ranks now (Amir Khadir, Maka Kotto, Pierre Curzi, Maria Mourani, May Chiu, Luck Mervil, just to name a few off the top of my head) whereas there were none before.

Apparently immigrant kids who have been raised in Quebec have an increasing tendency to replicate the voting patterns of the francophone majority once they reach adulthood. If this turns out to be true, this would deprive the pro-Canada side of one of its more solid bases of support.

Bottom line: the issue has been around for it seems like forever and isn't likely to go away in our lifetimes and even those of our grandkids.

[dmnari]

Why would Quebec want to be separated from Canada? In fact, I don't see how it would be possible. Could someone explain to me how they can go about separating themselves from Canada should they win the referendum? I want to know whether they have put down some sort of framework on how they are going to achieve this.

[Note I am not from Canada and I don't have any stake in the debate. I don't care either they remain part of Canada or not. I just want to know if they can survive being an independent country.]

[netwit]

Originally Posted by dmnari

Why would Quebec want to be separated from Canada? In fact, I don't see how it would be possible. Could someone explain to me how they can go about separating themselves from Canada should they win the referendum? I want to know whether they have put down some sort of framework on how they are going to achieve this.

[Note I am not from Canada and I don't have any stake in the debate. I don't care either they remain part of Canada or not. I just want to know if they can survive being an independent country.]

Well, that's the question - whether they could in fact separate themselves legally. In recent years there was talk about continuing to have ties with Canada - a separation instead of a divorce, as I understand it, continuing to share ties such as the Canadian dollar.

There are valid historical reasons for Quebec's dissatisfaction. Again, as I understand it, Quebecers were treated quite badly by the English in their own province, as stepchildren, or second-class citizens. And when the Catholic Church lost its hold on people, I think that some of that religious feeling transferred itself to sovereignty.

However, in a world that is increasingly going global and where boundaries between nations are going down, it seems a step backwards from what is actually going on in the rest of the world. And if Quebec were to separate, nothing changes the geography, which is that Quebec would still be an island of French in an English sea.

Please note I have some sympathies for the Quebec anti-English feeling since it is a feeling that has been shared by other ethnicities throughout Canada (I am not Anglo). Even when I was growing up, which is not that long ago, the Anglo portion of the population looked down on the rest of us.

But I would liken the practicality and likelihood of Quebec separating to the secessionist talk among some states in the US: fighting words but it's never going to happen.

It's a complicated subject but this History of the Quebec sovereignty movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
will give you at least some idea of what the issues are.

Basically French Canadians don't identify with Canada, as they see it but I don't identify with Canada either. It wasn't part of my culture to identify patriotically in the way that Americans identify patriotically with their country. I identify with my cultural heritage.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dmnari

Why would Quebec want to be separated from Canada? In fact, I don't see how it would be possible. Could someone explain to me how they can go about separating themselves from Canada should they win the referendum? I want to know whether they have put down some sort of framework on how they are going to achieve this.

[Note I am not from Canada and I don't have any stake in the debate. I don't care either they remain part of Canada or not. I just want to know if they can survive being an independent country.]

Once they recovered from the emotional shock of the separatists' near-victory in the 1995 referendum, the pro-Canada federalist side (who thought they would win by a wide margin) set out to create a framework for future attempts at secession. It is called the Clarity Act: Clarity Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most pro-Canada people were happy with it, whereas the separatists slammed it as an attempt to handcuff Quebec into staying with Canada no matter what. The separatists have vowed to ignore it, and have said that the issue of legitimacy would be played out on the international scene.

There were some pro-Canada people who had some reservations about the fact that it sets a precise roadmap for achieving secession, and wondered out loud what Canada might do if the separatists actually did meet all the conditions set out in the act.

However, for the most part the pro-Canada side is quite smug in its conviction that Quebec has little chance of ever becoming independent from Canada. This smugness has almost burned them a few times in the past (nearly catastrophically in 1995), but for the most part they are always very confident that their side will forever come out as the victor.

Anyhow, I believe that Canada is probably one of the only countries that has a law on the books that sets out how chunks of it can secede.

In any event, there isn't a secession/separation issue in the world that hasn't been studied and debated in intricate detail more than the Quebec issue.

Consider that almost 35 new independent countries have been created since 1990. I would venture to say that not a single one of them would have had the level of preparation that Quebec has for this.

Although I am not in favour of Quebec's independence, it could obviously ''survive'' as an independent country. It would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of the 20th richest country in the world, so if it can't survive, it doesn't say much for many of the others.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by netwit

However, in a world that is increasingly going global and where boundaries between nations are going down, it seems a step backwards from what is actually going on in the rest of the world.

That depends on your point of view. As I pointed out in my post above, 33 new countries have become independent since 1990. Independence movements that were once inactive or non-existent are now robust in places like Scotland. And the places that are coming together like the EU are actually sovereign states that want to be able to pick and choose which powers they share and which they get to keep for themselves.

That's precisely the PQ's point: we'll become independent and have all the powers here, and *then* we'll decide what we want to share with what's left of Canada, and what we want to work collaboratively on with the Americans, and perhaps even the Mexicans and other countries as well.

Originally Posted by netwit

But I would liken the practicality and likelihood of Quebec separating to the secessionist talk among some states in the US: fighting words but it's never going to happen.

I don't think the situation in Quebec can be equated with that of any U.S. state, or even of Canadian provinces like Alberta where there are some separatist rumblings these days. (Note that Alberta's beefs are exclusively monetary, whereas Quebec's motives are largely cultural).

The Québécois/French-Canadian nationalism that has given rise to the separatist movement has roots going back several hundred years. Not suggesting you are saying this Netwit but it is not something that a group of hotheads cooked up on the back of a napkin.

It is one of the most powerful such movements in the world.

Originally Posted by netwit

Basically French Canadians don't identify with Canada, as they see it but I don't identify with Canada either. It wasn't part of my culture to identify patriotically in the way that Americans identify patriotically with their country. I identify with my cultural heritage.

I don't dispute this but such sentiments, though normal, usually fade away (in the absence of major discrimination) after a few generations with the new country's identity eventually taking over completely.

As for francophones in Quebec, their ancestors have generally been just where they are for around 400 years, and in the country known as Canada since its inception in 1867, which should have allowed for more than enough time for the country's identity to prevail. Since it has not, then obviously something else is at play.

[netwit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's precisely the PQ's point: we'll become independent and have all the powers here, and *then* we'll decide what we want to share with what's left of Canada, and what we want to work collaboratively on with the Americans, and perhaps even the Mexicans and other countries as well.

But the question is whether Canada would want to share anything with an independent Quebec.

I don't think the situation in Quebec can be equated with that of any U.S. state, or even of Canadian provinces like Alberta where there are some separatist rumblings these days. (Note that Alberta's beefs are exclusively monetary, whereas Quebec's motives are largely cultural).

I disagree with this. Alberta in particular associates itself with a "western" culture,which is distinct and different from the east. Although Manitoba is considered a western province, I have always found we had much more in common with the eastern Canada mentality than western, specifically Albertan. While "culture" as defined by the west may not be the same as a specifically ethnocentric culture, ie French, in PQ, it is nonetheless seen as a culture by westerners. It doesn't matter how I or you would define it, if it is how they self-identify. The money thing plays into it of course but I believe the west sees that more as a weapon to use in the exercise of their culture.

And I have no sympathies for western independence ideas.

The Québécois/French-Canadian nationalism that has given rise to the separatist movement has roots going back several hundred years. Not suggesting you are saying this Netwit but it is not something that a group of hotheads cooked up on the back of a napkin.

No, I wasn't saying that. There are legitimate grievances.


I don't dispute this but such sentiments, though normal, usually fade away (in the absence of major discrimination) after a few generations with the new country's identity eventually taking over completely.

Mennonites are the Jews of the Protestant reformation. When you carry your homeland within you, you don't identify in a specifically nationalistic way. When the **** hits the fan you move along with your entire village.

As for francophones in Quebec, their ancestors have generally been just where they are for around 400 years, and in the country known as Canada since its inception in 1867, which should have allowed for more than enough time for the country's identity to prevail. Since it has not, then obviously something else is at play.

There are separatist groups in France too, and not just the Basques. I don't know what the history is but when I lived in Haute Savoie (the French Alps) there was graffiti marking the rocks calling for independence. My French was not good enough to make total sense of the reasons but unlike the Basques, as I understood it, there isn't a separate culture in the French Alps.

I don't think something else has to be at play at all in order for separatist groups to form. There are always regional identities. I know more about German history and culture, having lived there too, and there are many, many German dialects. A "high" or standard language develops out of regional dialects, for often people from one village to the next spoke different dialects.

That sort of difference, however slight it may seem to outsiders, can be enough to start a separatist movement. It also helps to have enemies or perceived enemies. Nothing binds a people together more than real or perceived injustice or isolation, and being a large French mass within a North American English sea is enough to establish one's sense of being "other".

In short, what I'm trying to say is that there will always be disaffected people who for reasons both real and imagined will have separatist inclinations. It is one of the ways humanity spread across the world.

I know this isn't going to format the way I want it to, with quotes from your post but I don't know how to do it right so ...