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Comment: I think having the CPA as co-trustee is appropriate and actually protects you. As your family member's cognitive abilities decrease, you will want him to resign from his TTE role if he makes financial decisions or writes checks. That may not be necessary if he has no interest in his finances. Questions I would ask:
1. How to best protect the trust from legal challenges by other family members, or is it in good shape
2. Should you be asking grampa to resign from his tte role?
3. What is the lawyer's opinion of your co-trustee situation?
4. Is your general and medical POA sufficient to admit your grandpa into a care facility or what is the recommendation
5. What should you be aware of, going forward, as a co-trustee
Side comment: We were advised years ago to obtain managing conservatorship over our mother. We just recently admitted her to a memory care facility but we conferred with an elder attorney 8 years ago.
We decided not to go thru the conservatorship process because it would have made our mother refuse to interact with us for the balance of her cognitive life (you do need to know your person's "grudge history") and that would have resulted in total isolation for her, she would have been in emotional pain beyond my and my brother's our shared tolerance of having her lonely/suffering/but too angry to interact with us.
So, we basically waited it out for 8 years until we were able to use our POA's to admit her and her capacity was so diminished that she didn't even have the mental capacity to consider legally challenging us. The conservatorship in her state is a process that makes her come to court and in open courtroom be declared incompetent. We decided we couldn't assault her dignity because it likely could have initiated a mental and total breakdown of meaningful relationships was us. So, in her case, because we were all she had, we simply felt we had to deal with her issues the way we did by responding to constant emergencies and using in home care (which she hated and kept sending the "senior volunteers" away -- she never knew they were paid because that would have infuriated her).
I am just giving you input because the lawyer will likely recommend managing conservatorship/guardianship as your only way to force grandpa into assisted living if you cannot convince him.....so wanted to give you our experience. If we had a mom who wasn't a professional grudge-holder, we would have gone the guardianship route and would have place her in an ALF years ago.
OP: Not strange at all for the CPA to be a trustee. I'm sure had things worked out differently for my parents, they would have asked their financial advisor to be on theirs. As runnings posits - the CPA is bound to work in your grandfather's interests, not your family's (also, not yours). Having independence (any of the trustees carrying out activities separately from one another) is also not strange - as it can be difficult to get 3 different people together to make "joint" decisions.
I'm sure your grandfather trusted both his CPA, and you, to act in the way he would want.
So you're going to see a lawyer for yourself? (to protect yourself?). Or as your grandfather's POA, you're going to see a lawyer for your grandfather?
you're not very clear on that.
It sounds as though you really need to see a lawyer FOR YOURSELF, to make sure that you're protected in the event that one of your family members questions the trust or your handling of issues.
I guess im going to see a lawyer for both reasons. toprotect myself being the first and for help being poa for my grandfather. I need help navigating these entire process and help with coming up with a plan and excuting the plan. I feel protecting myself ad folowing my grandpas wishes and wants kinda go hand in hand. I want to be able to do what my grandpa has expressed to me in the past and in his trust and i want to make sure i do it and do it correctly.
I am hoping that there is a way to pay for the lawyer from the trust. I know that my grandpa would pay for it as he has told me many times he doesnt want me being POA to cost me anything out of my own pocket, im just hoping it is written clearly that way in the trust. If it isnt then im gonna be in a real bind as i do not have the finances to pay a lawyer. especially now that i have cut back my work so much and increased expenses in certian areas due to helping and going to my grandfather 4-6 days a week. But i also have decrease a few expenses such as not buying lunch everyday lol. but i will figure out a way to pay no matter what because i fell it is so important. I hate that money is such an issue in life. When you dont have it you need it and when you do have it everyone wants it. I very recently began the process of switching professions and have cut way back on my expenses to make this happen. I was already working less but now am working even less. I was planning on starting school again doing online courses but am concerned about doing that now , since my grandfather does not have internet at his house. I was also in the process of moving out of state very soon. My boyfriend is purchasing a franchises and has been gone for 6 weeks to do his training and finalizing the purchase of franchise. The plan was for him to go andd stay at a hotel and find a place to rent then myself and our dog was to follow and move to wherehe isby mid november. But now im kinda stuck in limbo. I dont feel i can move away from my grandpa now that he needs me. I dont want to do that. He has always been there for me and i want to be there for him. He is very special andd important to me. But i also in the back of my head worry that i may miss out on having a future because of me wanting to stay and help him. Im 33 and would like to still have a family. I know that time is not on my side with that. Also living in seperate states while my boyfriend starts a new (time depanding nd consuming business is going to make having a relationship near impossible. We have been together for over 6 years and we both plan to be together in the future but i know long distance relationships are hard and often dont work. So what happens if this goes on for 10+ years (most of his brothers lived well into there 90's) Ill be in my mid 40's alone, with no family of my own and without a career to support myself. and by then or shortly after my mom and uncle both will be needing help im sure as neither of them have been good to their bodies or minds. Then what....after them i will eventually need help but who will be there to help me? noone
Sorry for kinda going off on a tangent and way off topic. this has been weighing heavily on my mind the last few days.
Critical issue: You identified the POA as a "general power of attorney". If it is not also a durable power of attorney, the POA is void when Granddad becomes incapacitated. You need to read the general POA, as well as the medical POA.
You also state that you, along with Granddad and his CPA, are co-trustees of a revocable trust. Hence, Granddad is not only one of the co-trustees, he also retains the power to revoke the Trust.
Take all of the documents to your appointment tomorrow. It will take time for the attorney to review these documents so don't expect any solid answers and/or advice immediately following your initial appointment.
I guess im going to see a lawyer for both reasons. toprotect myself being the first and for help being poa for my grandfather. I need help navigating these entire process and help with coming up with a plan and excuting the plan. I feel protecting myself ad folowing my grandpas wishes and wants kinda go hand in hand. I want to be able to do what my grandpa has expressed to me in the past and in his trust and i want to make sure i do it and do it correctly.
I am hoping that there is a way to pay for the lawyer from the trust. I know that my grandpa would pay for it as he has told me many times he doesnt want me being POA to cost me anything out of my own pocket, im just hoping it is written clearly that way in the trust. If it isnt then im gonna be in a real bind as i do not have the finances to pay a lawyer. especially now that i have cut back my work so much and increased expenses in certian areas due to helping and going to my grandfather 4-6 days a week. But i also have decrease a few expenses such as not buying lunch everyday lol. but i will figure out a way to pay no matter what because i fell it is so important. I hate that money is such an issue in life. When you dont have it you need it and when you do have it everyone wants it. I very recently began the process of switching professions and have cut way back on my expenses to make this happen. I was already working less but now am working even less. I was planning on starting school again doing online courses but am concerned about doing that now , since my grandfather does not have internet at his house. I was also in the process of moving out of state very soon. My boyfriend is purchasing a franchises and has been gone for 6 weeks to do his training and finalizing the purchase of franchise. The plan was for him to go andd stay at a hotel and find a place to rent then myself and our dog was to follow and move to wherehe isby mid november. But now im kinda stuck in limbo. I dont feel i can move away from my grandpa now that he needs me. I dont want to do that. He has always been there for me and i want to be there for him. He is very special andd important to me. But i also in the back of my head worry that i may miss out on having a future because of me wanting to stay and help him. Im 33 and would like to still have a family. I know that time is not on my side with that. Also living in seperate states while my boyfriend starts a new (time depanding nd consuming business is going to make having a relationship near impossible. We have been together for over 6 years and we both plan to be together in the future but i know long distance relationships are hard and often dont work. So what happens if this goes on for 10+ years (most of his brothers lived well into there 90's) Ill be in my mid 40's alone, with no family of my own and without a career to support myself. and by then or shortly after my mom and uncle both will be needing help im sure as neither of them have been good to their bodies or minds. Then what....after them i will eventually need help but who will be there to help me? noone
Sorry for kinda going off on a tangent and way off topic. this has been weighing heavily on my mind the last few days.
The big challenge we all have is balancing between the needs of our elder with any health issues vs. having a meaningful life and future for ourselves. These are very tough issues with no simple answers. I have to conjure up memories or early in life conversations I had with my mother and ask the functional her in my mind to guide me. The old imaginary her tells me what to do; as does my deceased father. I have to use these fantasies to keep me aligned! You might consider attending some caregiver support group meetings or just talking it out with a geriatric social worker.
<snip> Sorry for kinda going off on a tangent and way off topic. this has been weighing heavily on my mind the last few days.
Understandable. You are thinking about a major life event that will (probably) change the course of your life, forever. In which direction, I don't know.
Perhaps it is time to sit down and have a heart-to-heart talk with your mother. I perused your "other" thread and it is unclear why you are certain your mother will not honor her father's wishes. What does that mean? Has she made any proposals regarding his care?
Understandable. You are thinking about a major life event that will (probably) change the course of your life, forever. In which direction, I don't know.
Perhaps it is time to sit down and have a heart-to-heart talk with your mother. I perused your "other" thread and it is unclear why you are certain your mother will not honor her father's wishes. What does that mean? Has she made any proposals regarding his care?
My mother can be great and wonderful. She can also be delusional and irrational. She gets an idea or plan of how things should go and that is the only way that it can happen. She often thinks it her against the world and everyone is out to screw her over She has had a a very rocky relationship with every person in my family and goes years and years without speaking to the majority of the family. She self diagnosis and medicates (ordering rx online from countries such as India and China) I also know she went against my grandmothers (her mothers) wishes because she felt "it wasn't right or fair" and that she was being "cheated" or "bypassed" it caused a great deAl of problems and fighting I our family and took 13 yrs to resolve and have my grandmas wishes followed. It was all over 2 pieces of jewelry. My grandmother clearly stated in her will she wanted both my sister and I to each have one specific piece of jewelry and my mother took possession of said jewelry and refused to allow us to have it "till after she (my mother) was gone (dead)". She has also made statements that my grandfather needs todo this or that regardless if what he wants, says, or feels. I just don't trust her
Critical issue: You identified the POA as a "general power of attorney". If it is not also a durable power of attorney, the POA is void when Granddad becomes incapacitated. You need to read the general POA, as well as the medical POA.
You also state that you, along with Granddad and his CPA, are co-trustees of a revocable trust. Hence, Granddad is not only one of the co-trustees, he also retains the power to revoke the Trust.
Take all of the documents to your appointment tomorrow. It will take time for the attorney to review these documents so don't expect any solid answers and/or advice immediately following your initial appointment.
Good luck.
It is durable general power of attorney and durable power of attorney for health care. I just read about the differences last night and was relieved that I have durable power.
My mother can be great and wonderful. She can also be delusional and irrational. She gets an idea or plan of how things should go and that is the only way that it can happen. She often thinks it her against the world and everyone is out to screw her over She has had a a very rocky relationship with every person in my family and goes years and years without speaking to the majority of the family. She self diagnosis and medicates (ordering rx online from countries such as India and China) I also know she went against my grandmothers (her mothers) wishes because she felt "it wasn't right or fair" and that she was being "cheated" or "bypassed" it caused a great deAl of problems and fighting I our family and took 13 yrs to resolve and have my grandmas wishes followed. It was all over 2 pieces of jewelry. My grandmother clearly stated in her will she wanted both my sister and I to each have one specific piece of jewelry and my mother took possession of said jewelry and refused to allow us to have it "till after she (my mother) was gone (dead)". She has also made statements that my grandfather needs todo this or that regardless if what he wants, says, or feels. I just don't trust her
It sounds hard hearted but here's how I feel.
We are related to other people probably for a reason, however it's just a quirk of birth who we end up with in life. Essentially they are all just other "strangers" (people). Good and bad qualities, whatever.
Given the extent of so many people that may or may not "need" something "FROM" you, I would be there for the person who took the time to build a relationship and used rational thought with ME. (gramps). The person who TRIED to help themselves live a purposeful principled life. (gramps)
NO, I would not be making serial lifetime sacrifices for a CROWD. ONE TO A CUSTOMER!
I always say between age 30 and 40 this crystallizes if you're lucky.
The BF situation is a tough one. You assume after six years your path is clear. But things can also happen with that. Mine got Hepatitis C (before treatment was commonly successful)...after 10 years together and wanted nothing to do with my offer to make longer term sacrifices, he was facing his own mortality and was a miserable person because of it. After the initial drama of "Ok we have to break up now" passed he was still 24/7 obsessed with his condition (rightly so) but also doing his OWN THING and wanting NO input. IE mixing Chinese herbs and not telling his doctors etc. This collided with my mother's health and causing her own stroke. Lovely. My kid's FIRST YEAR OF COLLEGE away.
I agree it's very confusing. You wonder HOW am I in the middle of all this drama?
It also appears on paper that moving into your grandpa's home would be one option but we all know how much of a nightmare that COULD be. Even if he thought he was "helping you"...you would potentially be the target of his not so coherent emotions now etc etc etc. Let alone the stress of seeing him 24 hours a day in that state etc. Also since the goal is to get him to ALF that complicates it. And his acceptance if you're there probably.
BTW get internet there.
Also someone posted a thread about criteria for family members drawing a caregivers salary. I know nothing about it. Ask the lawyer. There is NOTHING unprincipled about you tracking your hours and drawing a small paycheck if you are actually doing the things that are outlined in this [new] law. I'm even sure the CPA would agree if they have a CLUE what is all involved. ANOTHER issue...CPA learning curve.
Good luck tomorrow and breathe! Take care.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 11-13-2013 at 11:36 AM..
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