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[A] reaction that the evil frequently engender in us is confusion. Describing an encounter with an evil person, one woman wrote, it was "as if I'd suddenly lost my ability to think"....This reaction is quite appropriate. Lies confuse. The evil are "the people of the lie", deceiving others as they also build layer upon layer of self-deception.
He's talking here about what I call 'brain scramble'. I don't think I love his use of 'evil' as that is the furthest end of the spectrum for a Narcissist. Not all are even malignant, much less 'evil', though I understand he is a religious man and lies to him are 'evil'. My brother is even malignant to a degree, but I would not go so far to say he is evil, like say that man who was just convicted for raising the price of epi-pens by 5 billion percent.
To clarify, are you using the acronym BPD to mean bipolar? Because when using acronyms, BPD usually means Borderline Personality Disorder. And BP for bipolar, so as to avoid confusion. One is a mental illness, and another is a personality disorder. You went on to describe Borderline traits, not bipolar.
Whether she's been diagnosed with NPD she certainly displays the traits and has her whole life, well before dementia. The queso incident is classic N. I'm not sure you are catching all the nuances. Hubby is a source of Narcissistic supply to the Mom. She likes male attention. For her to turn on him over his suggestion that she alter her method of getting her queso and chips together caused an immediate dent in his armor as her white knight. Putting him back in his place immediately became her primary goal. Whereas normally she wants to please him. It's fascinating, really.
Anyway, you think that putting a halt to the whole lunch is better boundary setting than just getting two appetizers? I am not in KA's mind so IDK what % of that is making a point and what % is a simple solution to the problem, but either way it's softer and milder than yanking away the lunch for everyone. That's a big play that to my mind would be saved for really egregious behavior.
Yes, exactly.
For the most part, I am sick of having my appetite ruined at lunch with my mom, and I'd prefer she didn't coon finger my food. But it's also a boundary - "You can do that all you want - with your food. Not mine."
I'm sort of afraid to ask, but how did they know he was 'locked in'? Drs told me there was no way to know with my mother and I feared desperately that she was.
Something about his reflexes or brain waves or something. I don't recall. But until Thursday, he could and would respond by squeezing his left hand - he had slight movement left on his left side.
On Tuesday he had the catastrophic stroke on his brain stem, after a smaller stroke in another part of his brain (which he could have recovered well from). They told me Tuesday evening that he would never recover but that they could save him from dying of the stroke - only to have him die a few days or weeks or months later of some complication of being totally paralyzed. They asked me if we needed to switch to palliative care and hospice rather than fighting his pneumonia and all that and I asked if he was in any pain and they said no, so I asked if I could think about it and pray about it - and reread his medical directive and just get some peace - and give them an answer the next morning.
Of course, I got home and reached the conclusion, which I have never regretted, of taking him off life support and switching only to comfort measures. So the next morning, I went in and went over to my dad's left side and I was standing there crying and I told him that I wished he could let me know some sort of way that this was OK. He had already squeezed my hand with his left hand when I came in, so I said, "Dad, if you want me to keep you on life support, squeeze my hand again." He lay there completely still. I already knew what his answer would be, so I said, "OK, Dad. I think I know what you want. Oh, Dad, I am so sorry. I love you so much. I can hardly bear to think about losing you, but I can't imagine that you want to live this way. I'm so sorry, Dad."
When I said that, a big tear ran from his left eye down his left cheek.
So I'm pretty sure that he could hear and understand everything we were saying.
Shortly after that conversation, which was the saddest conversation I've ever had in my life, he quit moving his left side. He passed away Friday afternoon. But I think he was still able to hear us - and his doctors and the hospice staff told us that he was able to, so I'm just going by that.
I am so glad you mentioned this because I feel I have a "film" of sadness covering me all the time. And I feel alone in that regard.
I used to be a very happy-go-lucky person. After watching my mom's cognition deteriorate over 17 years, and dealing with my father who has continuously refused to seek counseling and thus has continually taken his anger out on ME in those years and moreso now, I feel like I am constantly on edge.
I've had to take on a role of being a "manager" rather than just being the silly fun-loving daughter/wife I used to be. My father is too emotional to deal with anything "tough" so I have had to be the tough one over the years. Being "tough" and "brave" all the time doesn't exactly make me cute and cuddly at home.
It sucks. It's exhausting. It's hard on a career and a marriage.
Anyway, I'm not trying to make this thread about me. It's just comforting to know that others "get it."
Like Kathryn, I too have a wonderful husband and seriously could not get through this without his moral support -- and financial support, as I've had to take quite a bit of time off work over the years.
Oh my gosh, we are living parallel lives! This sounds like my life - that film of sadness, that fatigue from having to be strong and "tough" and "brave" - I'm sick of it. I think it's made me hard in some ways and I really, really hate that. I hope that will fade over time.
Share your feelings and experiences any time - I love it.
I need to re-read that. Thank you for bringing it up. I'm sorry for the reason you needed to read it though.......I read it out of interest in psychology. Now I actually need it............there is another book of his I can't remember the name of it, so many of my books are in storage, but it's good for everyone to read. They don't need to be dealing with any of this for it to be helpful. Just in life.
I love M Scott Peck and need to reread his books. I did reread "The Road Less Traveled" not that long ago and I loved it - it's a lighter, yet still very succinct and insightful book than People of the Lie. But wow - People of the Lie hit home very hard.
He's talking here about what I call 'brain scramble'. I don't think I love his use of 'evil' as that is the furthest end of the spectrum for a Narcissist. Not all are even malignant, much less 'evil', though I understand he is a religious man and lies to him are 'evil'. My brother is even malignant to a degree, but I would not go so far to say he is evil, like say that man who was just convicted for raising the price of epi-pens by 5 billion percent.
I don't think my mom is evil either - but I do think that the destruction and harm that some of the actions that Narcissists and other "people of the lie" cause feels so much like evil that it may as well be that. Who knows?
I think Peck also calls this "brain scramble" "crazy-making" and WOW - when I read his description of it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, that is TOTALLY MY MOM AND MY BROTHER." Honestly, it floored me but now that sort of behavior is so obvious to me that sometimes it strikes me as funny.
The further I read the more I do not like his writings on Narcissism.
Quote:
In Martin Buber's words, the malignantly narcissistic insist upon "affirmation independent of all findings." p 80 Self-criticism is a call to personality change...The evil are pathologically attached to the status quo of their personalities, which in their narcissism they consciously regard as perfect. I think it is quite possible that the evil may perceive even a small degree of change in their beloved selves as representing total annihilation. p 74
That's a known fact. It's not a new idea of his. It's why they respond so badly to criticism. Their whole sense of self is being ripped apart. It's where Narcissistic rage comes from. And I don't think it's helpful in psychology, for the therapist or the Psychiatrist or the family to call patients 'evil'.
In fact that is very off-putting to me for a good reason. There are already too many Christians who think that psychology is witchcraft and MI is really from demons, so victims do not need medication, or therapy, they need only God.
Quote:
In addition to the fact that the evil need victims to sacrifice to their narcissism, their narcissism permits them to ignore the humanity of their victims as well....The blindness of the narcissist to others can extend even beyond a lack of empathy; narcissists may not "see" others at all.
They don't see others. Others are extensions of themselves.
Quote:
To come to terms with evil in one's parentage is perhaps the most difficult and painful psychological task a human being can be called on to face. Most fail and so remain its victims. Those who fully succeed in developing the necessary searing vision are those who are able to name it.
And with this, I am done with him! Naming is important. Understanding why an N does what they do and why is extremely useful for coping. But not naming them as evil. Some are, sure, but not most actually rise to the level of EVIL. Lordy.
They are ILL. That doesn't mean I will tolerate actions that feel evil to me, but there is no good from naming as evil unless the intent is to believe they are literally a demon and I have to simply run for my soul. Bleh.
It was The Road Less Traveled that I enjoyed and learned a lot from, but I don't like the excerpts from this book........
I don't think my mom is evil either - but I do think that the destruction and harm that some of the actions that Narcissists and other "people of the lie" cause feels so much like evil that it may as well be that. Who knows?
Psychologists! And people used to think that Bipolar people were possessed and now we know it's a chemical imbalance. Actually that is a bit simplified, it's also a neurological disorder and there are some 'nurture' aspects to whether someone who has the gene will have it triggered, but current SCIENCE is a whole lot closer to what it is than 'possessed by demons'.
Narcissists are nurtured. We all are narcissists as teens, and only a small tiny percentage don't grow out of it. Two out of three of my N's were raised in Orphanages. Grew up with severe feelings of inferiority. And trauma is what got them to the orphanages.
My gma was like the girl in the story. She was the Little Princess. Her Daddy did truly dote on her when he could, and the rest of the time she made up fantasies about him. She had 'intermittent' experiences of devotion and being made to feel worthless. One of the theories of how N's develop is based on just that juxtaposition.
She was not evil. She was trapped more than anyone by her own illness, especially after her doting husband died. As is my brother. He completely defeats his own goals of needing/wanting people by being so utterly repellent to them. That is SAD.
The further I read the more I do not like his writings on Narcissism.
That's a known fact. It's not a new idea of his. It's why they respond so badly to criticism. Their whole sense of self is being ripped apart. It's where Narcissistic rage comes from. And I don't think it's helpful in psychology, for the therapist or the Psychiatrist or the family to call patients 'evil'.
In fact that is very off-putting to me for a good reason. There are already too many Christians who think that psychology is witchcraft and MI is really from demons, so victims do not need medication, or therapy, they need only God.
They don't see others. Others are extensions of themselves.
And with this, I am done with him! Naming is important. Understanding why an N does what they do and why is extremely useful for coping. But not naming them as evil. Some are, sure, but not most actually rise to the level of EVIL. Lordy.
They are ILL. That doesn't mean I will tolerate actions that feel evil to me, but there is no good from naming as evil unless the intent is to believe they are literally a demon and I have to simply run for my soul. Bleh.
It was The Road Less Traveled that I enjoyed and learned a lot from, but I don't like the excerpts from this book........
I don't know - you yourself said that Bipolar Disorder is a mental illness and Narcissism is a personality disorder - and there is not a psychiatrist or any other doctor on this planet who has been able to find any sort of "fix" for a personality disorder, so I personally am not sure that Narcissists just get a free pass on their behaviors. Now, are they "evil?" I don't know - I'm sure some are and that evil is exacerbated by their narcissism.
I am definitely not working from a place where I think that narcissism or any other personality disorder is something that is NOT evil. Look at the great sorrow and the totally jacked up relationships, all the heartache that is caused by various personality disorders. This can't come from a good place - at least that's my opinion.
But I stop short of labeling all Narcissists as evil. That being said, some of their behaviors are just SO destructive - to themselves and others - that I can't justify just saying, "Well, they can't help it."
I don't buy it. My mom CAN behave if it's made to be important enough to her to behave. So she has the capability to behave but often chooses not to, even though she knows her actions cause pain. She enjoys fighting. She enjoys distressing other people. I'm sorry - I just can't classify that as something she can't control, when I've seen her control it.
I don't know - you yourself said that Bipolar Disorder is a mental illness and Narcissism is a personality disorder - and there is not a psychiatrist or any other doctor on this planet who has been able to find any sort of "fix" for a personality disorder, so I personally am not sure that Narcissists just get a free pass on their behaviors. Now, are they "evil?" I don't know - I'm sure some are and that evil is exacerbated by their narcissism.
I am definitely not working from a place where I think that narcissism or any other personality disorder is something that is NOT evil. Look at the great sorrow and the totally jacked up relationships, all the heartache that is caused by various personality disorders. This can't come from a good place - at least that's my opinion.
But I stop short of labeling all Narcissists as evil. That being said, some of their behaviors are just SO destructive - to themselves and others - that I can't justify just saying, "Well, they can't help it."
I don't buy it. My mom CAN behave if it's made to be important enough to her to behave. So she has the capability to behave but often chooses not to, even though she knows her actions cause pain. She enjoys fighting. She enjoys distressing other people. I'm sorry - I just can't classify that as something she can't control, when I've seen her control it.
The bolded is way too complicated to type out. The nutshell is there are a whole lot of variables that go into WHEN they can control it. Or rather, what we perceive as controlling it, which doesn't look the same to them. They are surviving. (mentally) and so what is perceived as controlling oneself (cleaning her apartment) is only survival tactic (to stay where she is) and they cannot then carry over from that to the next thing and so on until they are acting 'normally'. They'd have a breakdown if more and more was forced.
Staying on a more surfacy level, that is why the thing with your husband was so interesting to me. The conundrum for her regarding that. Speaking purely clinically, that is one of the fascinating irregularities they have. She wants to please him, but to hell with him (in the moment) if he's going to shatter her self-image, that is paramount. They have to bounce around to obtain their conflicting needs. Another example of that is how they can only associate with other superior beings like themselves, so if one debases themselves too much to please them/provide narcissistic supply, they become worthless. Their supply has to come from the right people, not just anyone.
To the other part, yes, Bipolar is evil. Narcissism is evil. So are purely physical conditions. MS is evil. Cancer is evil. But we don't say the person who has MS or Cancer is themselves evil.
Look at how differently people with brain tumors that have hallucinations and act terribly are treated vs someone with a mental illness. Because one can be SEEN and the other not.
Finally, the difference you're pointing out regarding personality disorders? Even though they are not biologically organic, they still are not the fault of the person, but whatever has happened TO them in life. They are still victims. For them it's as organic as if they had been born with it. Sort of akin to PTSD. We see clearly what has happened to a person with PTSD and how it warped them. Not so easy with Personality disorders. But it's similar in how events in life are the cause.
Progress can be made with personality disorders, and medications can be given. My brother is a whole other person on his pain meds, because they happen to double as mood stabilizers.
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