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Old 08-10-2017, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,655 posts, read 60,273,788 times
Reputation: 101006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
The bolded is way too complicated to type out. The nutshell is there are a whole lot of variables that go into WHEN they can control it. Or rather, what we perceive as controlling it, which doesn't look the same to them. They are surviving. (mentally) and so what is perceived as controlling oneself (cleaning her apartment) is only survival tactic (to stay where she is) and they cannot then carry over from that to the next thing and so on until they are acting 'normally'. They'd have a breakdown if more and more was forced.

Staying on a more surfacy level, that is why the thing with your husband was so interesting to me. The conundrum for her regarding that. Speaking purely clinically, that is one of the fascinating irregularities they have. She wants to please him, but to hell with him (in the moment) if he's going to shatter her self-image, that is paramount. They have to bounce around to obtain their conflicting needs. Another example of that is how they can only associate with other superior beings like themselves, so if one debases themselves too much to please them/provide narcissistic supply, they become worthless. Their supply has to come from the right people, not just anyone.

To the other part, yes, Bipolar is evil. Narcissism is evil. So are purely physical conditions. MS is evil. Cancer is evil. But we don't say the person who has MS or Cancer is themselves evil.

Look at how differently people with brain tumors that have hallucinations and act terribly are treated vs someone with a mental illness. Because one can be SEEN and the other not.

Finally, the difference you're pointing out regarding personality disorders? Even though they are not biologically organic, they still are not the fault of the person, but whatever has happened TO them in life. They are still victims. For them it's as organic as if they had been born with it. Sort of akin to PTSD. We see clearly what has happened to a person with PTSD and how it warped them. Not so easy with Personality disorders. But it's similar in how events in life are the cause.

Progress can be made with personality disorders, and medications can be given. My brother is a whole other person on his pain meds, because they happen to double as mood stabilizers.
Well, honestly, my brother has been diagnosed several times with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder, not Bipolar Disorder) and he had a very cushy childhood with two enabling and adoring parents. Now, maybe his diagnosis is wrong - or maybe it's not, who knows? But I promise you that nothing traumatic happened to him when he was growing up and I do mean NOTHING.

 
Old 08-10-2017, 11:01 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,424,520 times
Reputation: 19717
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Well, honestly, my brother has been diagnosed several times with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder, not Bipolar Disorder) and he had a very cushy childhood with two enabling and adoring parents. Now, maybe his diagnosis is wrong - or maybe it's not, who knows? But I promise you that nothing traumatic happened to him when he was growing up and I do mean NOTHING.
That does not surprise me in the least. I didn't say a trauma has to happen. He was raised by a Bi-polar Narcissist, though, so it wasn't fun. You and he are made up differently biologically, and grew up in totally different families.

For instance, since I don't know your structure, my brother grew for 7 years as an only child. That alone is different than me growing up as a younger sibling. Then there are all the other differences.

Quote:
Theory Two: Environment

The second theory has a slightly confusing name; it's called the non-shared environment theory, and it essentially argues that though from the outside it appears that we are growing up in the same family as our siblings, in very important ways we really aren't. We are not experiencing the same thing.

"Children grow up in different families because most siblings differ in age, and so the timing with which you go through your family's [major events] is different," says Susan McHale, a researcher at Pennsylvania State University. "You know, a parent loses a job, parents get divorced. If you are three or five years behind your sibling, the experience of a 5-year-old whose parents get divorced is very different from the experience of a 9-year-old or a 10-year-old."

Also, McHale says, children in the same family are rarely treated the same by their parents, even if parents want to treat them the same.
Siblings Share Genes, But Rarely Personalities : NPR
 
Old 08-11-2017, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Surfside Beach, SC
2,385 posts, read 3,651,327 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Yes, exactly.

For the most part, I am sick of having my appetite ruined at lunch with my mom, and I'd prefer she didn't coon finger my food. But it's also a boundary - "You can do that all you want - with your food. Not mine."
I cracked up at that description. Remember that line for when you write your book.
 
Old 08-11-2017, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,655 posts, read 60,273,788 times
Reputation: 101006
Quote:
Originally Posted by vrexy View Post
I cracked up at that description. Remember that line for when you write your book.
Haha! Yes, I will! Thanks!
 
Old 08-13-2017, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Early America
3,095 posts, read 2,031,201 times
Reputation: 7757
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
A google search shows that for many, seroquel does also. And that is the recent change, not a worsening of the dementia. On her meds, a lot of things are going to be different.
Well, she has taken medication before but this is a new symptom. KA expected the increase in appetite (which is a common side effect), but not the change in food preferences which is a common symptom with dementia. Dementia is a mental disorder too with behavioral and psychological parts, not just cognitive.

As I said way back there, it doesn't really matter what has contributed more to her present condition when it comes to dealing with her *now*. Also, as stated in the post you quoted, it's typical to use a collection of maladaptive traits (borderline, narcissistic, passive-aggressive, etc.) in order to cope psychologically. With bipolar and dementia, they lack insight and self-awareness so most are unable to recognize and acknowledge their disorders. She has also had a stroke which may or may not have caused brain damage or otherwise contributed.

She has demonstrated repeatedly that her cognitive skills are poor, and that she uses negative reinforcement to try eliciting the responses she wants. When she gets away with something without negative consequences, it reinforces her negative behaviors. It's a vicious cycle.

Look into scholarly studies and applications used by professionals in behavior management for bipolar, dementia, etc. They can be applied by non-professional caregivers and family members. Behavior management can do just as much good for the caregiver as it can for the patient.
 
Old 08-13-2017, 06:43 PM
 
10,599 posts, read 17,800,123 times
Reputation: 17349
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplySagacious View Post

snip

She has demonstrated repeatedly that her cognitive skills are poor, and that she uses negative reinforcement to try eliciting the responses she wants. When she gets away with something without negative consequences, it reinforces her negative behaviors. It's a vicious cycle.
First of all, there is no "behavior management for bipolar, dementia, etc." They are separate diseases. (although I'll stipulate there are an awful lot of bi-polar people with dementia)

The Seroquel (and taking it regularly) is new. You can't lump "medication before" all together. And you can't assume symptoms are all going to appear concurrently. And you can't lump bipolar with dementia.

MamaAragon's presumed diagnoses aside (god only knows WHAT is WHAT with her)....(but yes brain damage was proven from the stroke - not sure which lobe).....

In my experience this is completely counterproductive in classic dementia. And I think Germaine2626 has proven even in her husband's TBI dementia he has alot of these same anxiety problems as regular dementia. Unless by "negative reinforcement" you mean the dementia person acting out so they don't have to do something they don't want to do. Like go to the doctor. Or bathe. And if you think threats of negative reinforcement things are going to WORK in THOSE cases, I have a bridge in San Fransisco to sell you. You'd better pray you got them on a good day, and they like you that day, and you can bribe, sweet talk, beg, or finesse them with a good reason or forget about it.

"Mom lets go in the car and get ice cream." (Plan for hijacking to the doctor). "Hey mom here's Dr.'s office, lets run in for a minute and get those papers he said he had for us then we'll see if he wants to go for ice cream".

Pray. Smile. HOld your breath. Prepare to pay the cancellation fee.

THESE are proven techniques - not "consequences". Sure you can say "You have to do this or they won't let you live here". Eventually that will fail and you'll find them packing their bags all day everyday after that little fiasco.

Which is the hilarious part because often family is TOO EGOTISTICAL and in a power struggle to EVER use those proven techniques.

And Dementia couldn't care LESS about "consequences" because the ONLY thing Dementia wants is what it cannot have. So Dementia says "You wanna talk consequences? Awesome. Bring It ON".

Unless you mean they AGREE to do something then try and get out of it. Well, who doesn't do that?

There is NO negative consequence that will result in a positive outcome with a dementia person. Just a thrust into the Red zone for a commensurate amount of time.

I can't even believe several pages, days and posts were spent on an imaginary struggle with MamaAragon hogging up the queso and her future punishment (a.k.a. negative consequence).

Who the hell cares? Next time order 2 or 3. And in MamaAragon's defense, KA stated she had already WARNED the husband about sharing food being a problem the week before. Desserts. So WHO'S FAULT IS THE QUESO DRAMA?

Trust me, I'm rooting for her to not even want the GD queso next time. Hopefully no time will be wasted on this nonsense or Dementia's gonna up the ante and start demanding for PapaAragon to come pick her up in an hour and you'll know what REAL problems are!

Scholarly material??

Well, ok, your experience does sound completely academic to me or you'd know that you cannot use "negative reinforcement" to make a dementia person do anything without YOU getting the consequence and paying the ultimate price.

Dementia: 1, You: 0

Unless you're ok with stirring up a hornet's nest and walking away leaving it for someone else to clean up.

Last edited by runswithscissors; 08-13-2017 at 07:17 PM..
 
Old 08-13-2017, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Early America
3,095 posts, read 2,031,201 times
Reputation: 7757
Quote:
Originally Posted by runswithscissors View Post
First of all, there is no "behavior management for bipolar, dementia, etc." They are separate diseases. (although I'll stipulate there are an awful lot of bi-polar people with dementia)

The Seroquel (and taking it regularly) is new. You can't lump "medication before" all together. And you can't assume symptoms are all going to appear concurrently. And you can't lump bipolar with dementia.

MamaAragon's presumed diagnoses aside (god only knows WHAT is WHAT with her)....(but yes brain damage was proven from the stroke - not sure which lobe).....

In my experience this is completely counterproductive in classic dementia. And I think Germaine2626 has proven even in her husband's TBI dementia he has alot of these same anxiety problems as regular dementia. Unless by "negative reinforcement" you mean the dementia person acting out so they don't have to do something they don't want to do. Like go to the doctor. Or bathe. And if you think threats of negative reinforcement things are going to WORK in THOSE cases, I have a bridge in San Fransisco to sell you. You'd better pray you got them on a good day, and they like you that day, and you can bribe, sweet talk, beg, or finesse them with a good reason or forget about it.

"Mom lets go in the car and get ice cream." (Plan for hijacking to the doctor). "Hey mom here's Dr.'s office, lets run in for a minute and get those papers he said he had for us then we'll see if he wants to go for ice cream".

Pray. Smile. HOld your breath. Prepare to pay the cancellation fee.

THESE are proven techniques - not "consequences". Sure you can say "You have to do this or they won't let you live here". Eventually that will fail and you'll find them packing their bags all day everyday after that little fiasco.

Which is the hilarious part because often family is TOO EGOTISTICAL and in a power struggle to EVER use those proven techniques.

And Dementia couldn't care LESS about "consequences" because the ONLY thing Dementia wants is what it cannot have. So Dementia says "You wanna talk consequences? Awesome. Bring It ON".

Unless you mean they AGREE to do something then try and get out of it. Well, who doesn't do that?

There is NO negative consequence that will result in a positive outcome with a dementia person. Just a thrust into the Red zone for a commensurate amount of time.

I can't even believe several pages, days and posts were spent on an imaginary struggle with MamaAragon hogging up the queso and her future punishment (a.k.a. negative consequence).

Who the hell cares? Next time order 2 or 3. And in MamaAragon's defense, KA stated she had already WARNED the husband about sharing food being a problem the week before. Desserts. So WHO'S FAULT IS THE QUESO DRAMA?

Trust me, I'm rooting for her to not even want the GD queso next time. Hopefully no time will be wasted on this nonsense or Dementia's gonna up the ante and start demanding for PapaAragon to come pick her up in an hour and you'll know what REAL problems are!

Scholarly material??

Well, ok, your experience does sound completely academic to me or you'd know that you cannot use "negative reinforcement" to make a dementia person do anything without YOU getting the consequence and paying the ultimate price.

Dementia: 1, You: 0

Unless you're ok with stirring up a hornet's nest and walking away leaving it for someone else to clean up.
I was referring to the Mom's negative behaviors. She uses negative behaviors as negative reinforcement to produce favorable outcomes for herself.

Behavior Management is positive reinforcement, and showing the patient that negative behaviors produce negative consequences. That is something that she and others like her can comprehend. She straightens up when faced with consequences she finds unfavorable. If they don't see negative consequences for their negative behaviors, then the outcome was favorable and negative behaviors continue and increase.
 
Old 08-13-2017, 08:33 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,424,520 times
Reputation: 19717
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplySagacious View Post
....it's typical to use a collection of maladaptive traits (borderline, narcissistic, passive-aggressive, etc.) in order to cope psychologically.
Typical of whom? That is a strangely random string: Borderline is a disorder, Narcissism is a disorder, with different traits though there is some overlap, passive-aggressiveness is not. So you're saying it's 'typical' to use a vast array of traits from two different disorders. Typical of whom?
 
Old 08-17-2017, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,655 posts, read 60,273,788 times
Reputation: 101006
For the record, my mom doesn't have "classic dementia" - whatever that is.

Her stroke (12 years or so ago) affected her optic nerve - so her balance is off. The stroke had very little cognitive effect- for instance, my mom had no memory loss, no loss of speech, no weakness or loss of movement on either side, etc. The stroke affected mainly her vision. But it did weaken her - as in her constitution seems weaker. It took the wind out of her sails.

My mom does respond to threats, unfortunately. That is not the way I like to operate. But to me, that's some proof that she can retain and understand quite a bit. You should see her apartment now that the administrator told her she simply had to keep it neater and cleaner or she would be told to move from the facility. It's picked up, dusted, vacuumed, you name it. I mean every single day it's picked up and cleaned - by her. Of course, this is also after being on the meds for several months now - the very effective meds that she fought tooth and nail and still occasionally fights.

She asked me Sunday about when a favorite relative, my aunt, was coming - if I'd heard from her. I didn't want to even say anything till the day before the visit, but I am not a good liar, so I said, "Well Mom, she and her daughter are coming in FIVE DAYS. Not tomorrow, not the day after - FIVE DAYS. Friday. They are not coming sooner. You have your talking watch, so I know you are going to be excited about them coming but before you get all worried and upset this week, listen to your talking watch first to be sure of what day it is." I KNEW she would be so anxious and excited about them coming that she'd start calling me...and she did, on Tuesday. "Well, surprise, surprise!" she said in a chipper voice. "I bet you know why I'm calling - I'm wondering where everyone is."

So I said, "Mom, did you listen to your talking watch?" She said, "No." I said, "Mom, listen to your watch. It will tell you that today is Tuesday. They are coming Friday. Every time you get worried or anxious or whatever about them coming, I want you to listen to what day it is. Otherwise you will just be worried and excited and anxious for days. Because they are not coming till FRIDAY."

I hated to even tell her Sunday but like I said, I'm not a good liar and she caught me off guard with her probing and detailed questioning about when they would be here. I'm sure she's talked with one of them recently and they said they were coming. Which they are. Friday.

Anyway, my point is that prior to the meds, she would have called me over and over again for days on end, often several times in one day, wondering "well, where on earth is everyone?" But she seemed to listen to me, and apparently she is listening to her talking watch too, because she hasn't called me since Tuesday. GOOD FOR MOM!

So the meds, while they don't fix everything, really do seem to clear her mind and ease her anxiety.

Part of the issue with my mom is that all her boundaries and societal expectations are pretty much toast. For all of her adult life, and I mean this literally, she has done basically nothing that she didn't want to do, and exactly when she wanted to do it or not do it. That's hard to believe but it's true. She didn't even have regular meal times because she would just eat (or not eat) when she felt like it. My dad had to make do. She got up and went to bed at all strange hours of the day and night because that's exactly what she felt like doing. I mean, it's almost pathological. Most people have a FEW deadlines and expectations to meet - but not her.

So now - when she's ready to go, or ready to eat, or whatever - she's READY. It doesn't matter whether anyone else is. The other day she was ready to go to church (on Saturday) and was trying to convince me to drive her over there! I said, "MOM. There is no church today - it's Saturday." She said "But maybe we should just drive over there anyway." AUGH. Also, this happens regularly - when she's ready to leave a store, or a restaurant, or whatever, she just starts to get up and leave. The other day, I wasn't even done with my salad. I said, "What are you doing?" and she said, "I'm done -I'm ready to go" as she GOT UP from the table. I said, "Mom, I don't know where you're going, but I'm going to sit here and finish my lunch, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't rush me. And we also have to pay." (Heavy sigh.) Then she plunked down looking all downcast and resigned and said, "Well...OK. Whatever you say." Then she proceeded to stare at me and fidget the rest of the time I was eating. As soon as they brought the ticket, she jumped up again. I said, "Mom, I have to wait to get the debit card back." (Heavy sigh again, and then heavier falling back into the seat.) "OK. OK." Sigh. Sigh. Sigh.

So honestly, I think a lot of her issue is that she has no filters anymore, so it's very difficult for her to accept that she has to cooperate with other people and on other peoples' time lines. I mean, she wants my aunt and my cousin to COME ON. I swear, it sometimes seems like she is trying to will time to move at her pace!

Anyway, the company is coming tomorrow so we'll see how that goes! My cousin is my age, but my aunt is in her 90s. OH MY. It should be a fun time in the old town tomorrow evening!

I really am looking forward to seeing my cousin though. I am going to give her some of my great grandmother's things - this was her grandmother. Since my grandmother (my cousin's aunt) was the only girl, she got all the "girlie" things, and my cousin didn't inherit anything from her grandmother.
 
Old 08-17-2017, 10:56 PM
 
5,401 posts, read 6,471,688 times
Reputation: 12016
It sounds like your Mother is getting along better. I hope she enjoys the big visit. Also it is very thoughtful of you to share with your cousin. Sometimes little things that mean the most.
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