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Excursions are the least of my concerns if I move her out of her facility into a memory care facility. I'm not worried about my bi weekly visits with her, which will still continue - I'm more concerned about her daily interactions and daily life in that different environment and the effect that will have on her psyche and overall quality of life.
Honestly, are you trying to be helpful or what?
I'm done for the night - got a new book in the mail and it's got great reviews. A cup of tea and me, snuggled up with a good book in my delicious bed sounds fabulous.
I am trying to be helpful. I didn't know you had tossed it all away and she is going to memory care. I thought you could stop taking her on excursions if she stops taking her meds, which as I understand it she has not actually done - just started getting grumpy about it again.
I am trying to be helpful. I didn't know you had tossed it all away and she is going to memory care. I thought you could stop taking her on excursions if she stops taking her meds, which as I understand it she has not actually done - just started getting grumpy about it again.
I haven't "tossed it all away and she's going to memory care." It's not an all or nothing thing with me or my mom - it's a gradual process, but yes, I do think memory care is inevitable at some point because not only does she have bipolar disorder that's often untreated (and always denied), she also has dementia that seems to be getting worse. I have stated repeatedly that I don't know if I will need to move her in a week, a month, or a year but it's coming one day as things are going.
She is showing the exact same symptoms she has had in the past when she said she was taking her meds but was actually spitting them out, hiding them in her cheek till people weren't looking, that sort of thing.
Deceitfulness and a determination NOT to comply with therapy and meds is very common with many serious mental health issues such as bipolar disorder 1 and schizophrenia. I can't tell you how many times she's told everyone she was taking her meds, and made a big show of taking them in fact, for us to find out later that she was spitting them out, hiding them, etc and actually getting a kick out of "getting one over on everyone." Frankly, I am not sure she' taking them regularly even with a professional meds administrator handing them to her because she's very determined not to take them. And she's acting exactly as she's acted in the past when she "fell off the wagon."
And my mother will fight something - anything - to the death. She is the very definition of determination and a person whose goal in life is to fight the powers that be.
I have used the term "anxiety" repeatedly to describe my mother's reaction when she's not on her meds. When she gets riled up, and starts pacing - it's a little difficult to tell where the mania ends and anxiety begins. And when a person is VERY full of anxiety it's a little difficult to tell where an overload of anxiety ends and a full on anxiety "attack" begins.
And she is manic OFTEN off her meds (I don' t think I've ever stated that she's manic every day she's off her meds). And OFTEN that mania descends into anxiety - in fact, that's it's usual trajectory. But once again, I don't think I've ever stated that the anxiety is every day either.
And what you said is that they would "put her on anti-psychotic meds," which definitely will not happen without a court order, which also will not happen since my mom does not have a history of violence.
Honestly I think we're splitting hairs here. No one is going to prescribe seroquel for occasional use as an anti anxiety medication. It's not even FDA approved for that. Ativan is very commonly prescribed though for anxiety - or anxiety attacks - or whatever you want to call it involving sudden and severe, well, anxiety. Which is what my mom suffers from after the mania runs it's course when she's untreated.
In fact, I've described this cycle over and over again on this thread - where she gets manic, and then instead of sinking into a more typical bipolar depression, instead she becomes more and more filled with anxiety. Her mania transforms into anxiety.
This is about the hundredth time I've described this - sorry you missed it over and over again in the past.
I seriously doubt that they even give Ativan to bulls - so yeah, I thought that tongue in cheek statement was pretty obviously not meant to be taken literally and didn't require psychic powers to figure out. My bad!
And by the way, I said "bull elephant," not "bull." That's some dramatic flair there for sure! SO much more interesting mental imagery! (Not meant to be taken literally - my mother looks nothing like a bull elephant and besides that, I think all bull elephants are males so there's that too.)
I'll tell you what - when I eventually move her to a memory care center, if they don't suggest Ativan for anxiety within the first 30 days she's there, I'll send you a $25 Amazon gift card.
Now I feel like I am in the twilight zone. Yes, you have described what happens off meds many times. Which is why I think they'd try to convince her to take her meds. Notice I keep saying 'try to convince her' - your wording for what they will do for Ativan - not 'make her take them' as you keep acting like I am saying. (IDK why she'd take ativan any easier than seroquel, but whatever on that part too)
I also never said seroquel should be given prn. I said (imo) they would try and get her to take that everyday, otherwise everyday she'd need ativan everyday (when she gets to that part of her mania), which makes no sense. (to me).
And yes I knew the enough for a bull or bull elephant was not literal but no, I had no way to know you weren't literal about 'giving' ativan, and more ativan. Since giving something to calm someone is done. You were describing it in a way that implied more and more, and in fact said 'until she is quiet and cooperative' which is exactly what they do in mental hospitals, which is how your imagery got across.
Lastly, I was not a part of the 3 page argument about what is and isn't ILF or ALF, so don't take it out on me. Your dramatic flair in writing is a fact, not an accusation. It's something you aspire to, so IDK why that is being taken as an insult. Unless your book is meant to be a boring, factual rendering unlike your story-telling here?
Now I feel like I am in the twilight zone. Yes, you have described what happens off meds many times. Which is why I think they'd try to convince her to take her meds. Notice I keep saying 'try to convince her' - your wording for what they will do for Ativan - not 'make her take them' as you keep acting like I am saying. (IDK why she'd take ativan any easier than seroquel, but whatever on that part too)
I also never said seroquel should be given prn. I said (imo) they would try and get her to take that everyday, otherwise everyday she'd need ativan everyday (when she gets to that part of her mania), which makes no sense. (to me).
And yes I knew the enough for a bull or bull elephant was not literal but no, I had no way to know you weren't literal about 'giving' ativan, and more ativan. Since giving something to calm someone is done. You were describing it in a way that implied more and more, and in fact said 'until she is quiet and cooperative' which is exactly what they do in mental hospitals, which is how your imagery got across.
Lastly, I was not a part of the 3 page argument about what is and isn't ILF or ALF, so don't take it out on me. Your dramatic flair in writing is a fact, not an accusation. It's something you aspire to, so IDK why that is being taken as an insult. Unless your book is meant to be a boring, factual rendering unlike your story-telling here?
Totally confused.
You used this phrase:
Quote:
according to your reports, she'd be like this everyday off meds so I do think they'd put her on meds.
That is not the same thing as "trying to convince her to take her meds."
I said they do not have the authority to "put her on meds" without a court order.
You also said that seroquel has an immediately sedating effect when we were talking about prn medications used to treat anxiety. That is why I stated that seroquel is not FDA approved to be used for anxiety. It's also not meant to be used occasionally.
And I WAS being literal about her being given Ativan - more than once. I was being facetious about her being given a dose big enough to calm a bull elephant.
I'm not seriously working on a book by the way - that really does seem like a whole lot of work for probably not a lot of return. Oh well - maybe one day, we'll see! It's pretty far down my list of priorities and projects at the moment. But thanks for the encouragement!
Dang it, speaking of books...I need to quit listening to the Isley Brothers and posting endless explanations that are boring even me at this point, and I need to get busy reading my new book! Good night fo real. Fight the power!
Excursions are the least of my concerns if I move her out of her facility into a memory care facility. I'm not worried about my bi weekly visits with her, which will still continue - I'm more concerned about her daily interactions and daily life in that different environment and the effect that will have on her psyche and overall quality of life.
What? No more excursions is a consequence of not taking meds, remember? I have no idea why we have gone into the future instead of using the tools known to work for the current sit, which is supposedly preferable.
What? No more excursions is a consequence of not taking meds, remember? I have no idea why we have gone into the future instead of using the tools known to work for the current sit, which is supposedly preferable.
Good morning, sunshine!
I haven't left the present. I just also think about the future. "Not taking Mom on excursions" really has nothing to do with whether or not she has to be moved to memory care. Her dementia is apparently going to progress whether she's on her meds or going on excursions or not.
Let me break this down very simplistically. My mom is getting worse. She has vascular dementia. No medication in the world can fix that. On top of that, she is probably only sporadically taking her bipolar medication, but I can't prove that one way or the other. Regardless, her cognitive abilities are diminishing. Eventually she will have to be moved to a memory care facility. This could be next week or next year. Whenever it happens, she will lose much of what she has now, so she and I both want to put that off as long as we can. It distresses me to think of her losing her cat and many of her freedoms, not to mention most of her personal belongings, all of which she enjoys.
She is very opposed to taking her medications. She has become much more argumentative with her meds administrator about taking them. No one can force her to take her bipolar medication without a court order, which will simply not be given because she is not violent. Simply put, it is her choice at the end of the day. I am tired of fighting this fight with her. If she gets off her meds completely, her cognitive abilities will diminish quickly and her move to memory care will happen in very short order - not as a punitive measure but simply because as soon as the seroquel is out of her system, she becomes manic and then anxious and then VERY anxious and this leads to a lot of confusion.
She is not full of anxiety every single day but it is often. If she gets too anxious and won't sleep and begins pacing, arguing, lashing out, hyperventilating (I've seen all this happen off her medication) in memory care, she will be given a prn medication in order to calm her down. It will probably be Ativan.
This likely scenario (the whole progression) concerns me a lot and makes me sad.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 09-12-2017 at 07:08 AM..
What? No more excursions is a consequence of not taking meds, remember? I have no idea why we have gone into the future instead of using the tools known to work for the current sit, which is supposedly preferable.
Based on some of KA's posts from about a week or 10 days ago the issue appears that Mom is getting worse (missing church a couple of Sundays ago, which she never does, etc.) It also appears that the administrators are seeing changing behaviors that indicate things have progressed to the point of needing the next level of care.
This is all separate from the "I can't take you on excursions if you don't take your meds" discussion.
Maybe you and KA are having your own exchange offline but I didn't see anywhere in this thread that she was lumping you into the IL/ALF discussion or taking your comments about her writing personally.
ETA: And what you perceive as "freaking out" or drama is probably just KA being very, very upset that her mother is diminishing in her ability to live where she is and it's all just very sad and painful.
Based on some of KA's posts from about a week or 10 days ago the issue appears that Mom is getting worse (missing church a couple of Sundays ago, which she never does, etc.) It also appears that the administrators are seeing changing behaviors that indicate things have progressed to the point of needing the next level of care.
This is all separate from the "I can't take you on excursions if you don't take your meds" discussion.
Maybe you and KA are having your own exchange offline but I didn't see anywhere in this thread that she was lumping you into the IL/ALF discussion or taking your comments about her writing personally.
ETA: And what you perceive as "freaking out" or drama is probably just KA being very, very upset that her mother is diminishing in her ability to live where she is and it's all just very sad and painful.
Thank you, wasel, and thank you especially for reminding me that these back and forths with a few people "in public" are often not pleasant for the majority of forum members who are following the thread.
I don't "give up" easily and I really hate to be misunderstood or misquoted or whatever, but I should know better than to go down a rabbit hole.
And your take on this whole issue is right on target. I don't know why I can't be more succinct - LOL! I am going to try to do better!
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE FRUSTRATED BY PETTY ARGUMENTS ON THIS THREAD - THIS IS NOT ANY SORT OF RESPONSE OR ARGUMENT - LOL. Sorry about all that.
Some musings of mine this morning over coffee:
The really sad thing about elder care, especially when dementia is in the picture, is that in spite of all we do or try or hope for, the person continues to get worse, and then they die. That's just the reality of it. This can be very painful for loved ones to watch, let alone be involved in.
I don't know how medical personnel who work exclusively with the elderly do it without feeling sad or like a failure. Wow, what a calling - and I really appreciate their willingness to work with patients that they know are going to get worse and die in spite of all their care.
I'm a very solutions oriented person and I am not used to failure when I put my mind to fixing something or solving a problem. Intellectually I know that death is just a part of life and that it's inevitable and that when someone dies, they die of SOMETHING so sickness or frailty or simply failure to thrive is inevitable. Intellectually I get it, but emotionally it's very sad to me.
And as the regulars may recall, my husband and I have lost three of our four parents over the past three years. On top of that, the family dynamics really took a hit (extended family) and a lot of stress and loss ensued. And then my dear brother - one of the main stays in my life, a man who has always been a pillar of strength to me, who was my "boon companion" when we were growing up, nearly died a few months ago and is still very sick and definitely not out of the woods.
I've had so much loss and stress over the past four years that I finally went to some counseling just to figure out how to assimilate all this loss and grief and stress, without it fundamentally changing the person I've been for so long, the person my husband fell in love with and the person that I've enjoyed being for most of my life.
I swear, sometimes I feel like I've got PTSD! I mean, I am not trying to diminish the experiences of others by saying that, but I have had it in the past (due to a very severe trauma), I got past it, but I recognize the symptoms and I swear sometimes I think, "OMG - this feels familiar and I don't like it."
A couple of years ago - heck, even till about last summer - when we'd get another inevitable phone call with some health emergency regarding a parent or family member, I could take the call. My brain would kick in, and I'd operate in my usual mode - which is no panic, very calm (I've always managed to be calm in a crisis), solutions oriented, very objective. Not overly emotional even when the situation was emotional.
But I very clearly recall when that changed. I went with my dad, who had been experiencing VERY serious health issues that had put him in ICU several times over the past few months, to the hospital for a bone marrow test. When they took his blood just before the test, all of a sudden I knew something was really, really wrong. People started running in and out of the room, I could hear whispering in the hall, and suddenly a doctor appeared who told my dad and me that basically my dad's blood had ZERO platelets in it and not only was he not having a bone marrow test today, he was being admitted to ICU again and this was very, very serious. Keep in mind that my dad was sitting there, looking 100 percent fine and feeling pretty darn good and normal. It was at that moment that I realized that nothing was as it seemed, and that no matter what we planned and what we did, my dad was going to die.
I said, "Hey, Dad, excuse me for just a minute - I've had too much coffee and I have got to duck into the bathroom - be right back!"
I went into the bathroom, began hyperventilating, felt a full blown panic attack coming on - I hadn't had one in probably 30 years or more. I tried to calm down, and when I could catch my breath, I called my husband who was out of state and I just broke down and began sobbing, could hardly catch my breath, and in between sobs I managed to tell him, "My dad is going to die, my dad is going to die, oh my God, I can't do anything to stop this!"
My poor husband. There was nothing he could do other than say "Honey, do I need to come home?" This from a man who had had to take off work multiple times over the past year for serious illnesses, funerals, etc. and had been under so much stress that his own blood pressure had soared to 210/110 and he had developed pneumonia and had nearly died himself!
I realized that I just had to keep carrying this load by myself. It was my load to carry. My parents needed me. I had to just buck up and carry it.
I sat there on that toilet in that hospital bathroom and composed myself. I said, "No, honey - not yet. Dad's just going to ICU but he's fully conscious and no one is saying that he's at death's door today. I just realized that this is going to kill him and there's nothing any of us can do to stop it and I had a little meltdown. I'm sorry. I'll see you in a week. I love you."
Four months later, my dad was dead. And he felt great till the very end. My last photo of him was taken a week or so before he had his big stroke. He was sitting out on my patio, looking like a million dollars, smiling into the camera with that sweet smile of his on a beautiful October day. His strong, beautiful hands are folded in front of him, and closer to the camera. I always loved his hands and his gentle brown eyes so much. I believe God gave me that last photo as a special gift because it captured two of the things I loved most about my dad so perfectly.
Anyway, I've been more fragile emotionally since that meltdown in the hospital bathroom. I felt a fundamental shift in my emotional wellbeing on that day.
Thank you, wasel, and thank you especially for reminding me that these back and forths with a few people "in public" are often not pleasant for the majority of forum members who are following the thread.
I don't "give up" easily and I really hate to be misunderstood or misquoted or whatever, but I should know better than to go down a rabbit hole.
And your take on this whole issue is right on target. I don't know why I can't be more succinct - LOL! I am going to try to do better!
Forums are for DISCUSSION. Hearing differing opinions from others who may have more experience is exactly what forums are for. How unfortunate that having a differing opinion is subject to such ridicule. This forum, as far as I know, is for everyone. Perhaps if everyone could have their say without being jumped on and made to feel like their experience doesn't count, the backs and forths would be more constructive. Forums are NOT all about just one person, doncha know!
And "majority"? That's laughable. You have no way of knowing what the majority thinks. Many are silent, and it's possibly because they think what they say will be marginalized.
Last edited by MyNameIsBellaMia; 09-12-2017 at 08:55 AM..
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