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I doubt creditors can open an estate on their own. They can slap liens on her house or take her to court. Everything behaves as it usually does outside of the probate process.
I'm skeptical she had an outstanding million dollar medical bill. Maybe they had dropped medical coverage because of financial troubles. My dad had refused to get Medicare B which contributed to higher outstanding bills.
Where I am a creditor may ask the court to force probate of the estate so they can collect what is owed.
Agreed. This whole no need of probate, when there are debts is confusing me.
Sure, I get that the house was titled in such a way to pass to the spouse. However, generally speaking no estate assets pass on to inheiritors until the estate is settled..?
So again, not sure how house could be sold if the estate isn't actually settled?
The home appears to be owned jointly. At the moment of father's death, full ownership vests in the mother. It is then owned by the mother, is not part of the father's estate and mother is free to sell the home. For example, my father's home (in Maryland) is still titled as jointly owned by my parents. If he chooses to sell the home the fact that my mother died is indicated on the deed that transfers ownership to the buyer. In addition, all of my mother's assets were "payable on death". Thus, even if she had debts, she had no remaining property in her name only that would have required an estate to be opened.
Talked with my brother and agreed that I'll get with mom and go through all the money stuff, then we'll go to an attorney to make sure we're doing everything correctly and see what we need to update.
Good for you, Kara. I strongly suggest you take notes so you can share the information should other sibling(s) question your handling of the matter.
The very first thing you need to do is get a general durable Power of Attorney from your mom, along with her medical directive and medical POA. Very first thing. Secondly, a copy of your dad's will, and at least ten copies of his death certificate. Put these in a folder in your car because you will be using them a lot over the next few months.
I find it fascinating that you were unaware that most families do not have significant savings and high incomes like you and your friends do.
Maybe the federal government should spread out and employ more good folks in flyover country.
Then again, it was the federal government that took control of my dad's employer a few years ago and stripped many of his retiree benefits, including $35,000 in life insurance, that was irreplaceable at any price at his age. That money could have given my mom some more time and choices.
I am not a fan of big government, ever, but the reality is they pump tons of money into my county. We're big supporters of shrinking the government at every level, the feds, the state and the county. I hate it when the government comes in and takes over anything, anywhere. I am so sorry it happened to you. I want the government OUT of all of our lives!
Yup, apparently I am very ignorant of how most people live. I know we were blessed with being able to get good educations and to work hard and save our whole lives so we can enjoy our retirement and help our kids when we can. I know not everyone has been able to do that.
Once again, IMHO, you are assuming that all children are like your children and all people are like you and have your advantages.
Also, IMHO, there is a difference between children who are in school and very recent graduates and adults in their 20s and 30s.
Among friends of mine that are close enough to discuss such issues, NONE, not even one, of our adult children asked for help to pay for honeymoon expenses. All, of our adult children felt that if they were old enough to get married they were old enough to pay for their own honeymoon. Is that wrong? Is that right? Neither, just different for different families. I have read that in some families or cultures it is traditional for the parents to pay for the honeymoon. But, not among anyone who I know, or who mentioned it to me.
Regarding wedding expenses, now that varied. In almost all cases, the bride & groom paid for the majority of the expenses themselves. Now, most of the parents chipped in for a few specific expenses, such as the groom's family paying for all, or part, of the rehearsal dinner and/or the bar bill. Some parents paid for the wedding gown, or bought the cake or flowers or contributed a specific amount towards the wedding. I have read that some parents pay for their adult child's entire wedding. Is that wrong? Is that right? Neither, just different for different families.
Once again, you are assuming that many/most adult children in their 20s and 30s have "high demand and high paying skills" and that is not always the case. Among my group of long time friends, who all hold or held professional jobs only a small percentage of our children in that age range have "high paying jobs" and most of the ones with relatively high paying jobs are still paying off substantial student loans that helped them get those "high paying jobs". Now, that may be completely different among other groups of people. Is that wrong? Is that right? Neither, just different for different families.
All I can speak for are my friends, or co-workers, who have discussed this with me. Usually, the children did not ask, even if their parents have the money, because they felt that as adults (albeit youngish adults) it was their responsibility to solve their own problems and not go running to Mommy and Daddy for help. It was not that they were afraid to ask, it was more that they felt that they wanted to "stand on their own two feet" and handle the issues on their own. Is that wrong? Is that right? Neither, just different for different families.
I am sure that can be very different in different families and probably very different in different cultures.
Now, when it is a very serious problem, or a long-term problem, or major problem, yes these same children have asked for help from their parents, but the things that I mentioned (needing to use food banks for a while, not being able to afford to get their car fixed immediately, putting off unessential health issues -like teeth cleaning or getting new glasses) were considered minor issues and the adult children wanted to solve the problems themselves. Normally, that meant getting a second job, or saving the money by scrimping/ cutting down on expenses/saving or waiting until they had a raise.
Now, for something major, such a young child (the grandchild) needing surgery or having a serious medical issue that the parents can not afford or in one case to help pay for the medical expenses and later help pay for the funeral expenses of a young child, yes, in more than one case the adult child has immediately asked for help from the parent/grandparent/others.
OP, I sincerely apologize for getting off the topic of the thread.
Nope, I have never assumed all kids are like mine. But I find it odd that kids could be desperately poor and not ask parents who have money for a bit of help, or at least a loan. But as you said, everyone's different. I know my parents helped me when I briefly needed it in my 20's and I was grateful for it.
My kids didn't actually ask for money for wedding or honeymoon, we offered, we wanted them to have certain things for their wedding so we paid for them. They could easily not had those things but we wanted them. We knew they had a certain place in mind for a honeymoon, a place we've all been several times and we love it, so we helped with that too so they could go on great honeymoon in place we all love. They did ask for help with their downpayment on their house and we were thrilled to help. It was a joy to watch them move into their home, one so much like the home they grew up in. They have decorated it so beautifully! It's all so much fun to watch. We're so proud of our kids and their successes. They're happy and independent so we're happy.
My kids most certainly "solve their own problems" and don't run to us for help. After college we've never helped them solve any problem, get any job, or anything else. In fact, we didn't do any of that when they were in college either. They always worked and took care of their money and expenses. They had merit scholarships so we only provided a bit of help with room and board, mostly they covered everything with jobs in the summer and during school. That was their decisions. We had saved and could have paid for their colleges but for the most part it was not needed. They've always been quite independent. We don't interfere with their lives. Ever.
Ok, back to your regular programming. Sorry for the interruption.
Last edited by BrassTacksGal; 02-22-2017 at 12:11 AM..
I am sure there are many reasons why young adult children don't ask their parents for help.
I think it is great your children have high demand and high paying jobs and maybe it is just the states that I have lived in or even the areas I have lived and the industry that is available, but I think there are quite a few more young adults who struggle then you think. We live in a southern state and factory work is the mainstay around here and most jobs top out of about $20 a hour, teachers salaries are low and most families both parents work full time jobs, some work a full time and a part time. Of course housing and taxes are substantially less than where you are.
The whole reason my mother lives with me is that she and my father were ill prepared for old age, my father was blue collar worker with only a high school education and when he worked he made decent money but had no retirement and so when he was forced to retire due to vision loss, he took his SS at 62 and they made do with that, not sure how, but they did. Then 10 years later when my mother turned 62, she drew half of what he drew and they had a little more money but NEVER enough to sufficiently plan for the future. When my Dad died 5 years ago, she lost the SS that she had been drawing and was just able to draw his, I haven't quite figured out how anyone can think that $1300 a month is sufficient to live on. Then when she got sick, I was the one with the most room and the one that would actually make sure she was getting health care that she needed, not to mention, we have better health care professionals where we live then where she did. So the hard decision was made to bring her to live with us, some days it is okay, other days it is the hardest thing I have ever done.
There was property involved that was inherited by my Dad but property values are so low, that even if is sold, it would provide very little extra income for my mother.
She does give us a little money each month to help offset her living expenses but it is nothing compared to what she had to pay in living expenses living back in Texas on her own.
Sadly this trend that children are taking care of their elderly parents in their homes is not going away, when you have a parent who had nothing but SS, medicare and could potentially qualify for medicaid, it doesn't get you an upscale nursing home. While I think my mother would benefit greatly from living in a step down assisted living situation, it is not financially feasible for her or us. So we like many other families do the best we can and make do.
I am so sorry you are going through this. We were blessed to have two sets of parents who were well prepared for old age so we had good role models to follow. We're hoping our kids will so the same because it's terrible to be old and poor and dependent on others, and not be able to afford what you need to live in the right facility. I am so sorry you and your mother are dealing with this. It must be very difficult. I know I wouldn't handle it well. I would be a complete and utter mess in your situation! You have my respect for what you've had to do for your mother. I know I couldn't have done it. I'm not that nice!
Nope, I have never assumed all kids are like mine.
But I find it odd that kids could be desperately poor and not ask parents who have money for a bit of help, or at least a loan. But as you said, everyone's different. I know my parents helped me when I briefly needed it in my 20's and I was grateful for it.
I think that this may help explain your disconnect with typical finances. Young adults who have difficulty finding the money for emergency car repairs, unessential medical care like teeth cleaning or new glasses, or may have periods where they need to go hungry or use food banks are not "desperately poor" it more like "a typical Wednesday". "Desperately poor" is a completely, completely different level of existence.
Before the Affordable Health Care Act, and after she was too old for our health insurance, our daughter, as a fairly new college graduate, could only afford catastrophic health insurance (that would pay for "major problems" like surgery, hospitalizations, etc.). It did not pay for prescriptions. One of her medications was a sort of specialty medication that cost $800 a month, and was not available in a generic form. There were no special programs or provisions to help pay for this medication. There was absolutely no way that her disabled father or I could give her $800 a month to pay for this medication. Her doctor was able to give her some free samples, but our daughter had to "take very serious chances" with her health by stopping this medication for a number of months until she could start the new insurance. BTW, she had a full time job and a part time job, neither offered insurance, nor paid enough so that she could afford this medication.
But, our daughter considered herself lucky, as she could afford an apartment and to buy food and to pay her bills and was not "desperately poor" like some people she knew (like her friend that lived in her van year round, including in Minnesota in the winter.) On dangerously cold nights, her friend would sleep on someone's couch so she would not literally freeze to death. And, she would shower once or twice a week in friend's apartments. And, yes, she was a college graduate, too and working full time, but could not afford rent & utilities while still paying off her student loans and other bills (car insurance, etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrassTacksGal
My kids didn't actually ask for money for wedding or honeymoon, we offered, we wanted them to have certain things for their wedding so we paid for them. They could easily not had those things but we wanted them.
We knew they had a certain place in mind for a honeymoon, a place we've all been several times and welove it, so we helped with that too so they could go on great honeymoon in place we all love.
Interesting. "We wanted", "we love", "we all love" so Mom & Dad helped pay for the wedding and honeymoon expenses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrassTacksGal
They did ask for help with their downpayment on their house and we were thrilled to help. It was a joy to watch them move into their home, one so much like the home they grew up in. They have decorated it so beautifully! It's all so much fun to watch. We're so proud of our kids and their successes. They're happy and independent so we're happy.
I'm a retired teacher and all of my friends are college grads (almost all with graduate degrees) who are teachers, businessmen, and other professionals. To my knowledge not even one of my friends had a child who asked for help with a down payment for a house, and even if they had asked for help the parents probably would not have had any extra money to give them. And, I really doubt that they would have been "thrilled" to help because that would mean that the parents may have to take money that they have saved for their retirement o to pay their own mortgage & bills. We live in two different worlds.
Now, some/many of my friends helped their adult child/children in other ways such as the child lived at home during college so their student loans were lower, or the child moved back home to save money and/or to pay off student loans after college. You said that your children are "independent" but you keep giving example after example of how they are/were very dependent on you and your generosity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrassTacksGal
My kids most certainly "solve their own problems" and don't run to us for help. After college we've never helped them solve any problem, get any job, or anything else. In fact, we didn't do any of that when they were in college either. They always worked and took care of their money and expenses. They had merit scholarships so we only provided a bit of help with room and board, mostly they covered everything with jobs in the summer and during school. That was their decisions. We had saved and could have paid for their colleges but for the most part it was not needed. They've always been quite independent. We don't interfere with their lives. Ever.
Ok, back to your regular programming. Sorry for the interruption.
Hmmm. "We don't interfere with their lives. Ever." Hmmm. Reread your post.
Last edited by germaine2626; 02-22-2017 at 06:59 AM..
Enough of the debates/arguments between BrassTacks and others. I don't think it's helpful to the OP's questions and it only extends the length of the thread for those looking for valuable advice that they may need in the future.
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