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Yes, sigh, By Nature is not a perfect food. It also contains menadione bislulfate as the last ingredient, an ingredient I hate. There is no such thing as a perfect commercial food, unfortunately. But I did months of trials and research to find a canned food my struvite kitty 1)could safely eat, 2)that she would eat, and 3)keep down.
Trial and error and research, it took months as I ruled out ingredients she couldn't tolerate, and foods she wouldn't eat, and foods that wouldn't raise her urine pH. After I finally settled on the By Nature Organic, I turned to raw in desperation, to expand her diet, because I believe cats should eat more than one food day in and day out.
There is no one diet that will suit every cat. Martha asked about Weruva, so I told what I know about it. I have one cat out of three who will eat Weruva nine livers (Not the struvite kitty). Because it was listed as so low in calories, I thought it would be a good food for this cat, as she tends to gain weight. She did not lose weight on Weruva. And after I saw Dr Pierson's list and discovered how high in carbs it is, I have cut it down to a food she gets only one or two days a month.
I also feed Natural Balance platefuls to one of my cats (again, not the struvite kitty, nor the cat who eats Weruva). It, also, is high in carbs, though (acording to the catinfo.org list) not as high as Weruva. But again, the cat who eats the NB has a very limited range of what she can tolerate and what she will eat. She is on 50% raw, with her daily canned portions consitsiting of By Nature Organic (two flavors) and twice a week, a pouch of Natural Balance Platefuls chicken.
It seems to be my fate in life to always have special needs cats who don't eat the same diets. Never, in all my years of living with cats (32 years as an adult) have I ever had all cats on the same diet at the same time.
<<It seems to be my fate in life to always have special needs cats who don't eat the same diets. Never, in all my years of living with cats (32 years as an adult) have I ever had all cats on the same diet at the same time. >>
Yes, sigh, By Nature is not a perfect food. It also contains menadione bislulfate as the last ingredient, an ingredient I hate. There is no such thing as a perfect commercial food, unfortunately. But I did months of trials and research to find a canned food my struvite kitty 1)could safely eat, 2)that she would eat, and 3)keep down.
Trial and error and research, it took months as I ruled out ingredients she couldn't tolerate, and foods she wouldn't eat, and foods that wouldn't raise her urine pH. After I finally settled on the By Nature Organic, I turned to raw in desperation, to expand her diet, because I believe cats should eat more than one food day in and day out.
There is no one diet that will suit every cat. Martha asked about Weruva, so I told what I know about it. I have one cat out of three who will eat Weruva nine livers (Not the struvite kitty). Because it was listed as so low in calories, I thought it would be a good food for this cat, as she tends to gain weight. She did not lose weight on Weruva. And after I saw Dr Pierson's list and discovered how high in carbs it is, I have cut it down to a food she gets only one or two days a month.
I also feed Natural Balance platefuls to one of my cats (again, not the struvite kitty, nor the cat who eats Weruva). It, also, is high in carbs, though (acording to the catinfo.org list) not as high as Weruva. But again, the cat who eats the NB has a very limited range of what she can tolerate and what she will eat. She is on 50% raw, with her daily canned portions consitsiting of By Nature Organic (two flavors) and twice a week, a pouch of Natural Balance Platefuls chicken.
It seems to be my fate in life to always have special needs cats who don't eat the same diets. Never, in all my years of living with cats (32 years as an adult) have I ever had all cats on the same diet at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21
Dr Pierson's chart is based on as fed values.
The first food on the list in both links is Paw Lickin Chicken.
The Guaranteed Analysis according to the Weruva website link is
10 % protein, 1.4 % fat, 1.5 % carbs
Dr Pierson's information, which was given to her by Weruva states:
As FED on a caloric basis:
53% protein (good) 18% fat, 29 % carbohydrates.
Reduced to a dry matter basis it translates to:
57% protein, 8% fat, 31 % carbohydrates.
There is a discrepancy in the calories listed also. The Weruva site lists 84 calories for a 5.5 ounce can. The up-to-date information provided by Weruva to Dr Pierson is that a 5.5 ounce can contains 108 calories.
I have just written to Weruva asking for an explanation about the calorie and other discrepancies and to ask them to help me explain the difference between a "guaranteed analysis" and an "as fed based on caloric value" percentage. What I mean is, I understand what I am reading on the charts, but I do not know how to explain it.
When I receive an answer, I will report back to this thread. But you can be certain that a food that lists potato starch as the third ingredient is going to be high in carbs.
Since foods that contain gravy have to add thickeners, they are going to be higher in carbs.
PS DrPierson does offer an explanation about the values at the top of her chart In part (bolded is mine, to help clarify):
Thank you for that entire post. Very, very interesting.
The article is about how the calories don't match up with manufacturer recommendations for x cans/cups/whatever per day and also about using a weird modified system which underreports the calories. This is very good info to know if you are feeding a cat who needs to lose or gain weight (or not gain or not lose, in other words, pretty much anyone!) But it also includes how you arrive at your protein/fat/carb+other numbers. It's just simple subtraction because the guaranteed analysis will always give you a minimum protein and minimum fat number. It's not going to be spot on because the moisture is a max number but it gives an idea that you can use on any food product.
So, for example, Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken:
100% - 85% moisture - 10% protein - 1.4% fat = 3.6% carb and other
They also give an average which is this:
100% - 79% moisture - 12% protein - 1.7% fat = 7.3% carb and other
Bit of a range there. But at least you have the average number to go by. Not everyone will give or publish that.
By Nature Organic Turkey and Chicken:
100% - 78% moisture - 9% protein - 6% fat = 7% carb and other
So we're in the same range here looks like in terms of what goes in, unless I'm completely mistaken somewhere. The numbers can vary: the moisture can be lower, and the protein and fat can be higher, and this can shift the percentages significantly, as you can see from just the variance in the two Weruva numbers. Given the numbers they're using for the guaranteed, I would be surprised if the By Nature shifts as much. Getting less than 78% moisture wouldn't really be that desirable I don't think and probably would be difficult.
Now this is not the same as what is contained in the Cat Info table if I understand it correctly. The above is the percentage of the ingredients. The Cat Info table is about what percentage of the calories are from protein, fat and carbs. For that you have to do additional math. Note that nothing that would be "other", such as trace minerals, vitamins, etc. will contribute to the calorie count. Calories only come from the protein/fat/carbs.
I thought maybe I'd have the energy this morning to see if I have all the numbers to do the additional math, but I'm not sure yet. Let me post this now and then we'll see. I think we at least have enough to know that when you're looking at some 2% carb number and those double-digit numbers on the Cat Info chart you are generally comparing apples to oranges (although certain types of cans will still come out that low even on the percentage of calorie basis).
One other thought I had at one point: pet food ingredients (indeed all food ingredients) are listed by decreasing order of weight. In a can of food, most of the weight is moisture. So the water/broth and assuming the meat ingredient is a fresh meat including its original moisture (i.e. "chicken" and not "chicken meal" which would be dried) make up the vast amount of the weight in the can. So even if the third/fourth ingredient is potato starch or pea flour or whatever, it isn't likely to be that much. It's just that the amount of that weighs more than everything else that is listed after it.
Your point pretty much sums it up. You just can't get accurate information. You can e mail a pet food manufacturer 10 times, and get 10 different responses. You can search 10 different websites and get 10 different charts, 10 different computations. So we can drive ourselves crazy, or make up our minds to get to a point where we stop looking.
Bottom line is what works for the individual cat, in the short and the long term. I check websites of foods I feed, and search recall lists, frequently, to stay as on top of things as possible, and feed a balance of commercial and home prepared, and hope everything I'm doing will continue to work for them.
In the case of the OPs cat, if she wants to feed him Weruva, after he has been eating it for about 2 months she should take him in and have a urinalysis done. This will tell her if the food is safe for him. If all is well, continue to feed the diet and have another UA done at 6 months. That is what I did with my struvite kitty as I struggled to find a good diet for her.
Your point pretty much sums it up. You just can't get accurate information. You can e mail a pet food manufacturer 10 times, and get 10 different responses. You can search 10 different websites and get 10 different charts, 10 different computations. So we can drive ourselves crazy, or make up our minds to get to a point where we stop looking.
Bottom line is what works for the individual cat, in the short and the long term. I check websites of foods I feed, and search recall lists, frequently, to stay as on top of things as possible, and feed a balance of commercial and home prepared, and hope everything I'm doing will continue to work for them.
In the case of the OPs cat, if she wants to feed him Weruva, after he has been eating it for about 2 months she should take him in and have a urinalysis done. This will tell her if the food is safe for him. If all is well, continue to feed the diet and have another UA done at 6 months. That is what I did with my struvite kitty as I struggled to find a good diet for her.
Actually, he's been off S/O for well over a year and has had no struvite crystals. I let him eat what he only would eat anyway: Mostly Friskies Senior T & G wet, Friskies shredded chickena and gravy, Wellness Chicken and Herring (he refuses other flavors) and he won't touch just about anything else but I recently discovered he will eat Weruva.
You know what? I don't worry about it too much. I am trying to deal with a lot of cats and have only so much time and energy and money. I just do my best. He has not gotten crystals for over 4 years, and he has also been eating Royal Canin and NB dry without ill effect so far.
I know my cats might not have the world's best diet, but I have taken in 16 or so cats in the past 17 years and figure they are inside, get fed, warm, love and vet care. The best I can do.
So we can drive ourselves crazy, or make up our minds to get to a point where we stop looking.
Or flip back and forth between the two. That's what I seem to do, go through a period of one then period of the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21
Bottom line is what works for the individual cat, in the short and the long term. I check websites of foods I feed, and search recall lists, frequently, to stay as on top of things as possible, and feed a balance of commercial and home prepared, and hope everything I'm doing will continue to work for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne
You know what? I don't worry about it too much. ... I know my cats might not have the world's best diet, but I have taken in 16 or so cats in the past 17 years and figure they are inside, get fed, warm, love and vet care. The best I can do.
Good summaries.
I mean sure, a possible side effect of learning about this stuff is that we see places in our own feeding habits that are less than ideal. And while we can get hung up on that part of it sometimes, would we really be better off without the added knowledge? Ultimately I think it's better to know more even if we sometimes choose not to follow every possible aspect of what might be deemed ideal.
Or flip back and forth between the two. That's what I seem to do, go through a period of one then period of the other.
Good summaries.
I mean sure, a possible side effect of learning about this stuff is that we see places in our own feeding habits that are less than ideal. And while we can get hung up on that part of it sometimes, would we really be better off without the added knowledge? Ultimately I think it's better to know more even if we sometimes choose not to follow every possible aspect of what might be deemed ideal.
Well, to be frank, this is a little period of time where I am not running around madly trying to handle too much for a couple to handle - and I really don't have enough time for more reading or learning about new foods these days. I am working with some folks who put out only dry cheap cat food for ferals in colonies because of the large number of cats (and dogs) they rescue: So the rest is a luxury. The fact that I feed mostly wet outside is, I consider, an accomplishment <s>.
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I think we at least have enough to know that when you're looking at some 2% carb number and those double-digit numbers on the Cat Info chart you are generally comparing apples to oranges (although certain types of cans will still come out that low even on the percentage of calorie basis). 
