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Old 11-16-2014, 10:41 AM
 
Location: NYC
1,723 posts, read 4,081,529 times
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Catsmom, both cats have been vet checked and are healthy. I refused to let Ghost come here unless she had all her shots and was healthy.

Maybe it is a territorial issue. Ghost has claimed most of the house as her territory. I think she'd gladly take over down here too but she's afraid of the dogs although they ignore her just like they ignore Stripe.

I've never had a cat like this and I've had so many cats. There was a time in my life when I swear there was an invisible sign on my house saying 'all cat's welcome'. At the time I had 3 cats of my own. Then I had a pregnant Siamese show up and just move in. I kept the mom and 2 of her babies. Stripe is one of them. I had a black pregnant cat show up and move in. I kept Princess, the mom and 2 of her all black babies because they were old enough to give away around Halloween and I was afraid people would adopt them for the wrong reason's. I'm a pushover. Except for Stripe, they all passed away in the last few years.

I had a beat up old gray tabby with a damaged leg that just walked in the house one day when I opened the door, plopped himself on the couch and made himself at home. He wasn't crazy about the dogs though. I took them all to the vet, got them fixed and got the old gray tabby's leg operated on. After he healed, he disappeared from my house and I was worried about him but 2 weeks later he showed up at my door, came in and plopped himself on the couch like old times. But he was wearing a blue collar with a new name on it. So obviously someone adopted him. I think he came back to see which house he preferred and I guess he decided he liked his new house better because I never saw him again.

Aside from the gray tabby I kept them all and never had any issues with territorial behavior at all, and I had the dogs at the time too.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:52 AM
 
Location: I am right here.
4,977 posts, read 5,727,119 times
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The last time I got a new 12 week old kitten, I kept her in a "cat kennel" for about a week to ensure she knew how to use the litter box and to give my old lady (about 15 years old at the time) time to get used to her scent. The kennel was big enough to hold a little litter box, had shelves she could climb on or jump too, and allowed her to see all around her. I would go into that room, close the door, and sit on the floor and play with her for periods at a time. Once I was assured she knew how to use the litter box, I left the kennel door open, but kept the door closed to the room. I did this for about another week. The 2 cats could sniff and see each other, but were still separated. Finally, after about another week, I opened the door to the room, and the little one ventured out and the old lady went right in to sniff around.

There was never a time they did not get along after this long introduction period. They sleep together, groom each other, playfully wrestle each other, and are best friends.

I feed wet food, and for the first few weeks when they were both together, I would give each their own can, but they'd switch and eat each other's food! Now, I give them one can at a time and they share. The younger one defers to her elder friend, though, and allows her to each first!
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:18 AM
 
Location: NYC
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Peach, that's funny about the younger cat deferring to the older one. Like I said I have 2 older male dogs. I used to have 5 but 3 have died in the last few years.

Anyway, I was looking at craigslist last year and someone posted a picture of a tiny little, elderly dog, and said they were going to put her down because their house was foreclosed on and they had to move.
So, being the pushover that I am, I went and picked up the dog. Muffin is very sweet and easygoing, partially deaf and has cataracts but she loves everyone and can see enough to get around.
For the longest time I kept her away from the bigger males because I was afraid they'd attack her and kill her, but one day she came down here. The male dogs were eating at the time and seeing Muffin down here walking over to their food dish almost gave me heart failure. I was so afraid they'd attack her. But, she went over to their food dish, growled at them and they backed away so quick. LOL To this day she rules the roost down here. If she wants their food, they back away and let her have it. They all eat the same thing so they just end up sharing dishes anyway so it works out.

Last edited by Lauriedeee; 11-16-2014 at 11:20 AM.. Reason: edited because apparently sch_muck is a bad word..
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:52 AM
 
43,011 posts, read 107,679,689 times
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OMG! Ghost is beautiful! She truly does look like a ghost too!

Well, she's obviously not mad at you for reprimanding her since you don't reprimand her. The poop on your bed must be territorial if her litter box was clean. You'll just have to keep your bedroom door closed and make that room off limits.

I think you should give them time. Two months isn't a long time for an adult cat to adjust. Your old girl isn't bothered by her except when she's startled. It could be a lot worse. Give it time and keep brushing them with the same brush so they smell the same.

She may be pouncing near your old cat because she's too afraid to bother the dogs. I anticipate she'll get more daring with the dogs in the coming months. They love to torment dogs if they feel safe doing so. She's giving them wide berth because she's not sure yet. Once she realizes they are harmless, she'll harass them like she's harassing your old girl.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:15 PM
 
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It does take some cats awhile to work things out. My eldest, Lily, did not like my stray rescue, Charcoal, one bit.

It took bringing a pregnant rescue in 18 months later (who then had 2 kittens) for Lily and Charcoal to sort things out...

Momma Kitty now and Charcoal are still 8 months into sorting things out.

Lily, the former grump, is just laid back about everybody and does her own thing.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:26 PM
 
Location: southern kansas
9,127 posts, read 9,260,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
There's a fine line between anger and territory. She can mark the OP's space as her territory in an attempt to establish dominance over the OP for upsetting her. "I'm not going to take your crap. I'm in control here. I'm going to show you via marking your space with my smell and make it my territory." If you want to say it's a stress reaction to being reprimanded, that works too. But I assure you Ghost pooped on the OP's bed out of some sort of displeasure with the OP over how she handled the interaction between Ghost and the older cat when Ghost was very mean to the older cat. This is good information to know because the OP can rectify the problem by not interfering with their interactions. Just like dogs, cats need to work things out on their own. Bobbles does not take well to being reprimanded. She has peed on my bed within a few hours after being reprimanded. Never any other time. I learned how to avoid having her pee on my bed by not reprimanding her.


I have professional cat rescue people telling me that opposite gender will work better. Many people here have said the same. Of course same gender can get along, but everyone is saying it's more fool proof if it's opposite genders. And Bobble's ovarian remnant is proof that a spayed or neutered pet can still have hormones.
That's been my experience too. Our females (unrelated) have never liked each other, but have learned to tolerate each other. However, they have always liked/loved and had no issues with the males at all. But it can't be said that this will be the case every time, because it really depends on the individual cats involved, circumstances, environment, etc.. I think the odds might be a little better with opposite genders, but that's as far as I would go.
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Old 11-16-2014, 02:36 PM
 
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I've been integrating adult cats for 35 years. There's never been any difference, male or female. I've only ever had 2 boys, the rest have been female. They've all learned to love one another. None of them care if they are female or male. Rank is important to some of them, but gender never has been an issue.

That is not to say that people who have had problems with integration aren't telling the truth. But it may have less to do with gender than with simply dislike between two cats.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:13 PM
 
Location: southern kansas
9,127 posts, read 9,260,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
I've been integrating adult cats for 35 years. There's never been any difference, male or female. I've only ever had 2 boys, the rest have been female. They've all learned to love one another. None of them care if they are female or male. Rank is important to some of them, but gender never has been an issue.

That is not to say that people who have had problems with integration aren't telling the truth. But it may have less to do with gender than with simply dislike between two cats.
I've always been rather envious of those who have cats that truly do love one another, and will cuddle & sleep together, etc. I think perhaps that my wife & I were just unlucky enough to adopt 5 females in a row that would rather be the only female in the house. My 4 girls are all approx. 1 year apart in age, and were brought home when they were 2 to 3 month old kittens. In every case the next older cat would befriend to new kitten, and would show affection and play with her. But that would all stop when the kitten got to be around a year old. Then she would be just another cat in house to tolerated, but avoided.
I'm not really trying to argue the point, as I do agree with you. I just wonder sometimes why my females have never gotten along well. Is it strictly their own personalities involved, or is it some household dynamic (with their humans) that's caused it.
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Black Hammock Island
4,620 posts, read 14,926,782 times
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Quote:
Mawi, From what I understand Ghost lived with a young single woman in an apartment. I don't think the woman had any other pets. Ghost was apparently taken care of well because I found some vet bills in the Louis Vuitton cat carrier that Ghost was delivered in and it's a real Louis V carrier. Since she had such an expensive cat carrier I'm guessing maybe Ghost was spoiled a little bit, and an only child too. Ghost, like Stripe have no interest in going outside.
OK - here's three quick thoughts about Ghost's new home: 1) it's so much bigger than she's used to; 2) contains more human beings than in her past; and 3) she's never had to share anything whatsoever with another animal. Glad to hear Ghost did not come from a horrible previous owner and indeed sounds like she had a great life. So, that's a non-issue.

I think just give her more time to adjust to all these big changes. To Ghost, two of these can seem threatening to her basic survival instincts (those subconscious instincts that automatically put animals and people into defensive mode with no thinking about it required) - territory ownership and food protection. It is just going to take time for Ghost to realize these things aren't threatened at all. Depending on how ingrained the instincts are, it could take a month's worth of feeding Stripe and Ghost near each other before Ghost finally gets it. Be patient! Keep doing what you're doing.

I'm even more hopeful after reading your description of Ghost's personality. Love her spirit! The fact that she sounds like an elephant says she's not suffering from a lack of confidence, something that's more difficult to reverse than how Ghost is now behaving.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Black Hammock Island
4,620 posts, read 14,926,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Some fallacies here I have to address. LOL.

Cats do not house-soil in "anger". Territorial issues, dirty litter boxes, illness, stress, can all be reasons for this.

Cats aren't solitary animals by nature. In the wild they live in colonies. Cats are very social animals. They form deep emotional bonds with other cats, dogs, rabbits, etc, and humans.

Females can get along with one another just as easily as cats of the opposite gender. Once they are spayed and neutered hormones do not play a part. Cats go by sense of smell, not gender. Some cats simply dislike eachother, just like humans don't like everyone they meet.

In this particular instance, it may be possible to keep the cats separated at all times, since they seem to prefer different levels in the house?

If new cat is causing too much stress to senior cat, the senior cat's needs have to come first. However, I have had another thought. When was the last time older kitty had a check up and blood work done?

I ask because sometimes one cat will sense illness and vulnerability in another cat, and this will make the healthy cat go after the ill cat.

Also, a cat who isn't feeling well may also act aggressive to other cats.

So I recommend vet trip first for senior kitty.

Next, vet trip for new kitty.

Install feliway on every floor.

Provide plenty of litter boxes.

You might also try rescue remedy, for both cats.

Keep cats separate, but continue to exchange scents.

Feed a good quality wet (or raw) diet. Diet plays a very large role in behavior, most people do not realize this. Cats eating species inappropriate food, such as dry food filled with carbs, do not feel their best and it will come out in behavior.
All great pieces of advice and sharing of experiences.

BUT I'm thinking we'll have to agree to disagree about what's in bold above. Felines are solitary with the only obvious deviant specie being lions (scientists are still debating why). All other feline species come together out of necessity only - survival and mating, not bonding in the social sense that we think. Ferals or homeless live in a colony only because of human actions - colony managers only set out one or two feeding stations.

What's amazing about felines is their ability to adapt because they do have a cooperative side to their nature. Two tigers or two cougars who cross into another's territory and meet up will not automatically fight unless one of them has to defend food or young or a mate (when it's that season). They actually prefer not to pick a fight unless there's a specific reason. A young male cougar might if he's in search of a territory to own, but otherwise he'll make a wide berth and keep going.

With domestics, both those in a colony and those in a household, what appears as social bonding is from two things: the ability to adapt and the against-nature behaviors when a cat is weaned. In the wild the young cat stays with its mother and learns from her until he or she is a young adult, and then the young adult strikes off on his/her own in search of a territory that will provide food and shelter and mates. Human intervention (or interference) changes all this - we become a kitten's teacher, we are the food providers, we determine a territory.

So while it looks like a cat has bonded with another cat or dog or rabbit or bird or what-have-you, it's just an adaptation. The apron strings were never properly cut from the mother, so that "bond" was never naturally broken. It's really no different than when our children remain living at home long after they've reached adulthood. Sometimes our older kids experience difficulties with independence once they eventually have it.

Adaption. You see this all the time at zoos where tigers, leopards, cougars, and other solitary-by-nature animals are living together in a group. They've been raised that way and have adapted. Sometimes they'll sleep snuggled together, sometimes nearby each other, sometimes in completely separate areas. It's the same in a cat colony. If you could view a colony from high above, you'd see all these different adaptations. Any kind of seemingly social bond is a psychological leftover of the mother-kitten relationship that never truly ended.

How this all applies to Ghost is that she needs time to adjust to not being solitary. She'll bond faster to humans because they are "Mom" who was always the provider of food and protection and never kicked her out to fend for herself. She'll eventually form an adaptive bond with Stripe and the dogs and enjoy their company (maybe with snuggles, maybe always from afar) because she'll have to share the territory for survival reason. Like humans, few cats want to feel grumpy 24/7 - they, like us, want to feel good. So we all adapt in whatever way to feel good.

(P.S. I'm studying feline behavior and work with Big Cats, so understanding natural instincts and adaptations and how each cat's personality is defined by these is essential to properly care for each one. There's a cougar named Max who adores bellyrubs and neck scratches, but put a bowl of food anywhere near him and he'll devour the hand and not think twice about it.)
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