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Old 11-30-2015, 04:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
I do not agree.

Cats show pain when they are in so much agony, they can no longer hide it.
Several weeks ago, I picked up my boy kitty for his morning hug, and he meowed like there was something wrong. He was most certainly showing pain.

Turns out that he had a reaction to a vaccination in his left hip.

Was he in pain? Sure.
Was he "in agony"? Highly unlikely.
Was he being a drama king? Probably.

I've been around declawed cats all of my life. Never once was there an indication of any discomfort with their paws or any joints. I would think, probably, that if a cat's joints were hurting, they might not be comfortable being picked up and hugged? Or not want their paws to be touched?


Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
And did you know that cats who have two paws that hurt, will not, cannot, limp?
And they also probably wouldn't be using the litterbox properly, or jumping up on counters or furniture...

Listen, I'm not saying that declawing is "good" or that complications do not happen, but really, you're not likely to win over many converts by making universal statements that simply are not true.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Yes, I guess my meaning wasn't clear. If they are labeled "unadoptable" because of behavior problems they are sent to a place that is *not* no-kill.
Ok. And, like I said, the only ones I've seen are at a no-kill shelter. So apparently there are declawed cats that are adoptable?
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:26 PM
 
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I am an owner of a cat who was declawed and dumped by his previous owners at the age of 5. For over 10 years I had him, we moved from place to place, using clumping/nonclumping litter, crystal/pine/whatever litter, living with strangers, crowds, stress... he never missed his box. I only bought 1 box for him and he used it faithfully. While he does bite a lot more, but it is out of play. He scoops the toy with his paws and put them in his mouth. Would I have preferred he played like cats do with their claws? I do, I see the joy that they have. Unfortunately, Aiko no longer have those claws so he make do with what he can and still manages to have some fun.

I had a second cat who was declawed, surrendered at a high-kill shelter after his owners moved to a no-pet 55+ community. He was chubby but so sweet, mellow and easy to handle. Never did he try to bite me except when he had a urinary obstruction and was in extreme pain. He was also perfect with his litterbox. Unfortunately, I had to rehome him after a year of trying to get him and Aiko to get along. They weren't having it with each other. He was rehomed to a forever loving home who adores him.

As a volunteer, for years, I had met cats that have their claws and those that didn't. Those who had claws needed a home as much as those who didn't. Those who lost their claws, the ones I met, did not dwell on lost things. They continue to live. They continue to play as if they still retained their claws. They scratch but leaves no marks and yet they scratch. They do not sit there feeling bad for themselves. Every declawed cat I had met was not surrendered due to the loss of claws. It wasn't litterbox issues or aggression. They were surrendered because of a move, allergies or all the same reasons as any other pet does.

Again, that is my experience, as a volunteer for over 10 years. Perhaps other volunteers find their declawed cats behave differently.

Declawing should be the last option if the owner exhausted all other solutions. If money is made from this procedure, then so be it. Veterinarians are business owners as well. They have expenses, student loans, a mortgage and a staff that relies on their money-making decision to make sure everyone gets a paycheck and more if the funds are there. You don't have to like what they are selling, just like any other businesses out there. Even my own M.D. tries to persuade me to take allergic tests every single year when I told her several times that I do not need one (It's not covered by my insurance so it will have to come out of my own pocket). All you have to do is say "No, thanks."

*I watched Pet Project and read the debates on this topic. My opinion is only in regard to domestic cats, not big cats as mentioned in the documentary.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetLittleWing
It used to be a very routine to have done and it is still legal here. If a client is still absolutely insistent on this procedure, I would rather see a veterinarian do it well, or refer that person to a place that does it well then drive a client to a backwards place that has little consideration standard of care or pain management.


.


I do not agree. Vets need to take a stand. If they say "I do not think you should declaw your cat because it is amputation of the toe bones, we can help you train your cat" and after all the education, the client still insists, and the vet does it, all that education is useless. The client says "well he agreed to do it so it can't be all that bad anyway"

If a vet does it, the vet is condoning it. It just is that black and white.

But I thank you for starting the thread and sharing that knowledge and understanding is spreading.

Keep spreading the word!
Yeah, I see your point there- in an ideal world people who after knowing the implications want to remove something which provides direct health benefit to a cat, from a cat would simply decide they shouldn't have a cat. Or better yet, US/Canada following suit with other civilized countries and actually banning the practice. From what I heard that was her BF's thoughts originally, it couldn't have been that bad because it is being done. He was surprised though once he found out exactly what it entails.

I don't want to see this devolve into a fight in which owners are called out as monsters. It's my hope that people who have had this done really didn't understand the implications, or received outdated information from a veterinarian they trusted. Seeing as how there are many cats out there who are declawed that lived long lives without obvious issues and were still playing, jumping and cuddly would add to that perception that there is nothing wrong with the procedure.

Quote:
I appreciate that. And, really, I'm not trying to be as tough about this particular issue as it might seem.
Honestly, I didn't think you were. I figure most of the people spending time in a forum with a love of cats in mind agree about more then they disagree on. btw, I am sorry to hear about your kitty. I recently lost one who was only 12 as well.

Quote:
I've been around declawed cats all of my life. Never once was there an indication of any discomfort with their paws or any joints. I would think, probably, that if a cat's joints were hurting, they might not be comfortable being picked up and hugged? Or not want their paws to be touched?
As someone who lived with discomfort (always had gut issues, arthritic symptoms started in the teens) you simply get used to it. The gut issues I simply assumed were normal, everyone felt sick after eating as that's the way it always was. When I started getting stiff as a teen, you sort of compensate. Unless I had a flu and was horribly achy, or I overdid it I wouldn't have thought of my condition as "pain". When the chronic discomfort starting going away though I was surprised and would now describe my prior condition as "painful", at least now that I know the difference of what energy and moving freely feels like. And this is someone who can vocalize how I feel. I'm still the same person, I wasn't a surly crank or anything before, no hobbled around like a cripple. I looked fine.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:52 PM
 
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Declaw is no good. Leaving cat defenseless is criminal. WHo cares it tears rugs/furniture -- throw it out, cats are live& living things, -- couches, rugs, etc. aren't, period.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetLittleWing View Post
As someone who lived with discomfort (always had gut issues, arthritic symptoms started in the teens) you simply get used to it. The gut issues I simply assumed were normal, everyone felt sick after eating as that's the way it always was. When I started getting stiff as a teen, you sort of compensate. Unless I had a flu and was horribly achy, or I overdid it I wouldn't have thought of my condition as "pain". When the chronic discomfort starting going away though I was surprised and would now describe my prior condition as "painful", at least now that I know the difference of what energy and moving freely feels like. And this is someone who can vocalize how I feel. I'm still the same person, I wasn't a surly crank or anything before, no hobbled around like a cripple. I looked fine.
With all due respect, can one compare the reaction of a human to chronic pain to that of a cat?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time believing that all of them have chronic pain. How can this be proven?
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post
With all due respect, can one compare the reaction of a human to chronic pain to that of a cat?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time believing that all of them have chronic pain. How can this be proven?
There are more studies on it now. You could contact The Paw Project for more information.

When you change the body structure, so nothing is aligned the way it is supposed to, there is going to be pain. The joints and tendons and muscles and bones don't line up and move in the way they are meant to. This creates pain. In time, as they age, many cats do get arthritis. In declawed cats that arthritis pain starts very early, because the joints and so on are stressed all the time.

When you amputate toes, and then expect the cat to walk on uncushioned bone, there is going to be pain.

Cats are stoic creatures. They hide pain instinctively because it is their nature to do so. They simply get on with it. For some cats the pain is too much to bear and they begin to avoid the litter box, and bite, or become withdrawn and fearful. .

For the rest, they just learn to accept their conditions.

For some lucky cats the cause becomes apparent when the cat is surrendered for "behavior problems" and The Paw Project gets involved. The paws are xrayed and bits of bone, claw regrowth and other horrors are found. But only a few lucky cats get that far. Most never get their paws x rayed. And most, no one even considers how much their back and legs must hurt from the altered gait

I have a cat (now an Angel) who suffered from resorptive lesions. They were chronic with him. This is an extremely painful dental condition. I've heard vets describe it as akin to "barbed wire in the mouth". The condition is so painful that, even under anesthesia, a cat will react to the area being touched.

Fortunately my cats get check ups twice a year, because with the cat who suffered from them a lot (he had very few teeth left by the time he left me) there were never any symptoms that he was suffering.

Even after I knew about them and knew what to watch for, I never saw any evidence of pain, except for that tell tale "chatter" when he would open and close his mouth. That was all.

He still ate, he still played, he still purred, he still snuggled with me, he still stalked birds through the window. And yet almost every year he needed teeth extracted because of this painful condition.

When he had cancer, when the fluid in his abdomen was so built up he could hardly move, and I put a litter box upstairs for him, he wouldn't use it. He was determined to do it the way he always had. But of course he couldn't. So I carried him up and down the stairs so he could use the litter box. But..he still played. He wasn't eating much by then, he was too sick for that, he couldn't take the stairs, but he still played!
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:26 PM
 
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catsmom, a great writeup summating it so true! can't rep ya but it sure needs one kudos!
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
There are more studies on it now. You could contact The Paw Project for more information.
I took a quick look at their website. I'll definitely have to take a closer look before making any decisions about it, but what I found very interesting was the "facts about declawing" at the bottom.

There seems to me to be a few "can" statements in there. That cats who have been declawed can have chronic pain, etc.

Interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
When you amputate toes, and then expect the cat to walk on uncushioned bone, there is going to be pain.
Could you point me to exactly where scientific studies say this? That there is going to be pain?


Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Cats are stoic creatures. They hide pain instinctively because it is their nature to do so. They simply get on with it. For some cats the pain is too much to bear and they begin to avoid the litter box, and bite, or become withdrawn and fearful. .
And again, I'll reference the story of my kitten of a couple of weeks ago. I guess he's the only cat in the history of the world who's actually let their owner know when they weren't in agonizing pain?

How is this story any different from yours where your cat was in a lot of pain and had little indication of it?

Anecdotal evidence does not a "universal truth" make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
For some lucky cats the cause becomes apparent when the cat is surrendered for "behavior problems" and The Paw Project gets involved. The paws are xrayed and bits of bone, claw regrowth and other horrors are found. But only a few lucky cats get that far. Most never get their paws x rayed. And most, no one even considers how much their back and legs must hurt from the altered gait
Again, any references to scientific studies regarding this?

--

I realize that you're not particularly interested in how your personal opinion on this comes across, but I will say to anyone else that might be interested, from the perspective of someone who tends to be "middle of the road" when it comes to a lot of things, the "fire and brimstone" approach without evidence to back it up doesn't really work all that well. Stick with the case studies and things that can be proven. Everything above and beyond that just becomes annoying noise.
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Old 12-01-2015, 03:59 AM
 
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I've been involved in this effort to educate about and ban declawing a long time. I have not become immune to the horrors these cats go through, they only make me feel worse with each passing day. I can't pretend to be objective, because I am not. This horror must end.

I don't need science to tell me that when you amputate the last digits of a cat's toes it's going to hurt. And since the cat has to walk on the amputated stumps, and dig in litter with those stumps, forever, I don't need science to tell me that is going to continue to hurt.

I don't need science to tell me that when a body is misaligned it's going to hurt. I have my own body to tell me that. Cat or human, some things work the same way. When you alter the way the body is meant to operate, which declawing does, there is going to be stress on joints and muscles that was not meant to be there. That stress is going to cause pain.

You want facts and studies, visit the sites I provided, there are links to the information you seek.. I've read them already. Unfortunately I also read the stories of suffering caused by this horrible legal animal abuse every day.

Most civilized countries have outlawed declawing because it is cruel and inhumane. More and more vets in Canada and the USA are opting to no longer do this surgery because they know it is cruel and inhumane.

I am convinced that ALL vets know this. Vets lie to themselves, they lie to their clients who trust them. The people who have it done believe the lies because they can't admit that what they have done to their cats is wrong. Denial is a powerful thing.

Here's an interesting article from Paw Project Utah on the type of paw repair surgery they do:

http://cat-chitchat.pictures-of-cats...ctive-paw.html

There are countless stories, with photographs, of the actual repair work being done on actual cats, on the Paw Project's facebook page.

Last edited by catsmom21; 12-01-2015 at 04:32 AM..
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