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You're probably right, but distracting them every time they do something unacceptable doesn't train them either -- unless you just want to train them to expect a fun distraction any time they try doing what you don't want them to do.
It is over stimulation, just stop petting. Some cats react more so than others, my one cat never bites, over stimulated, claws out, nothing. My other cat however, gets over stimulated, when he plays his claws are all out, and he over stimulates himself even when rubbing his head on me. To calm him down right away if he starts getting that crazy look in his eyes, I have a code word for cat treats, I say it and he is back to normal right away (along with getting some treats, lol).
Some cats are just weird that way. My one son had a Tortie named Alto. Torties have an attitude anyway, but she was really full of it. She would lay on your lap and you would pet her, and then this look would come over her face and she would turn and nip you. It was actually pretty funny, because it wasn't a hard bite, and we learned to dodge it most times. She also liked to sleep on top of your pillow at night, and if you sometimes moved the wrong way in your sleep, she would bite you on top of the head. Many a night I kicked her out of the bedroom.
Mama Cat at the shop is becoming very demanding also. When I stop petting her and go to leave to go into the shop, she will meow and grab my ankle with her paws and then make a move to nip my leg. I yell "NO!" and she stops, but she is getting very demanding for attention.
My history with cats is longer than my history with dogs. But I don't think I understand them as well. So I have some personal observations, based on my experiences, and I'm going to watch the thread to see if there might be some learning moments.
First, I have successfully taught my cats by using physical response. Example, a young cat kept getting up on the kitchen counter, in spite of discouragement. One day I just swatted the heck out of her when she did it. She never did it again. And it was just one swat. Which knocked her halfway across the kitchen, but it was open hand, and it wasn't done in a way to damage her. Unlike dogs, cats DO teach their kittens this way. However, I also recognize that this sort of response does not work with all cats. I've had cats who got very p.o.ed over getting treated like that. One of the nice things about cats, tho, is that if you then be nice to them for a while, they will forgive you for doing things the wrong way in their mind.
But all that is just prep to say this. I've had cats who learned not to bite when they were kittens, because they got a bad reaction from me. In some it took just an "OW" and a refusal to continue play. In others it took a little more, like a nose-swat, or a slap. But if they did not respond right away to discouragement, then, in my experience, they were NOT GOING to respond to discouragement. And the thing about discouragement is that it needs to be appropriate. In other words, I wasn't trying to hurt the cat out of anger and a desire for revenge. I was trying to impart a lasting lesson.
I've had cats who did the biting thing all their lives. I would pet them for a while, which they wanted, but something drove them away at the same time. It can be just weird. I've got a cat today, who wants attention and petting, but won't sit in a lap to get it, and is quite obnoxious over the whole thing!
If you teach a cat something in its learning months (eyes open to maybe a year or a year plus a bit old), it often only takes one lesson to take hold. Patterns set in those early months will last the lifetime of the cat.
So, sometimes the cats bite at what seems to us to be a weird time. If "NO" and a nose swat doesn't change it, then you probably need to figure out a different management pattern. I think the causes can be many. They might not have been well-socialized as kittens. Maybe they've had bad experiences when they were young that forever colored their attitude. I suppose the energy / play thing might also be a reason, but all my cats have been indoor/outdoor - so if they want to express their energy, they get to go out and do it in real life. Meaning I don't really think this is an issue for cats like it is for dogs - but hey, who knows!
By the way, that kitchen counter kitty? She and I had 13 wonderful years together. She even traveled with me, and was just probably the best cat I've ever had, to this day. I pulled her out of the gas chamber at the local pound when she was a kitten. But that's another story.
Some cats are just weird that way. My one son had a Tortie named Alto. Torties have an attitude anyway, but she was really full of it. She would lay on your lap and you would pet her, and then this look would come over her face and she would turn and nip you. It was actually pretty funny, because it wasn't a hard bite, and we learned to dodge it most times. She also liked to sleep on top of your pillow at night, and if you sometimes moved the wrong way in your sleep, she would bite you on top of the head. Many a night I kicked her out of the bedroom.
I didn't even mention that Samantha is a Tortie! I believe Alto must have been reincarnated. What you have described fits Samantha to a T. The other night I woke up to discover than she had manipulated her way onto my pillow and pretty much forced me off, a little bit at a time, without my realizing it. She was curled up comfortably in the middle of my pillow. She got put in another room so that I could finish out the night on my own. She has also bitten me on the top of my head!
My history with cats is longer than my history with dogs. But I don't think I understand them as well. So I have some personal observations, based on my experiences, and I'm going to watch the thread to see if there might be some learning moments.
First, I have successfully taught my cats by using physical response. Example, a young cat kept getting up on the kitchen counter, in spite of discouragement. One day I just swatted the heck out of her when she did it. She never did it again. And it was just one swat. Which knocked her halfway across the kitchen, but it was open hand, and it wasn't done in a way to damage her. Unlike dogs, cats DO teach their kittens this way. However, I also recognize that this sort of response does not work with all cats. I've had cats who got very p.o.ed over getting treated like that. One of the nice things about cats, tho, is that if you then be nice to them for a while, they will forgive you for doing things the wrong way in their mind.
But all that is just prep to say this. I've had cats who learned not to bite when they were kittens, because they got a bad reaction from me. In some it took just an "OW" and a refusal to continue play. In others it took a little more, like a nose-swat, or a slap. But if they did not respond right away to discouragement, then, in my experience, they were NOT GOING to respond to discouragement. And the thing about discouragement is that it needs to be appropriate. In other words, I wasn't trying to hurt the cat out of anger and a desire for revenge. I was trying to impart a lasting lesson.
I've had cats who did the biting thing all their lives. I would pet them for a while, which they wanted, but something drove them away at the same time. It can be just weird. I've got a cat today, who wants attention and petting, but won't sit in a lap to get it, and is quite obnoxious over the whole thing!
If you teach a cat something in its learning months (eyes open to maybe a year or a year plus a bit old), it often only takes one lesson to take hold. Patterns set in those early months will last the lifetime of the cat.
So, sometimes the cats bite at what seems to us to be a weird time. If "NO" and a nose swat doesn't change it, then you probably need to figure out a different management pattern. I think the causes can be many. They might not have been well-socialized as kittens. Maybe they've had bad experiences when they were young that forever colored their attitude. I suppose the energy / play thing might also be a reason, but all my cats have been indoor/outdoor - so if they want to express their energy, they get to go out and do it in real life. Meaning I don't really think this is an issue for cats like it is for dogs - but hey, who knows!
By the way, that kitchen counter kitty? She and I had 13 wonderful years together. She even traveled with me, and was just probably the best cat I've ever had, to this day. I pulled her out of the gas chamber at the local pound when she was a kitten. But that's another story.
You are going to get a ton of criticism over your post, and a bunch of accusations. I've had lots of cats over the years, too, and I see absolutely nothing inhumane about your way of teaching. I have not responded with any physical punishment to Samantha... yet. But I think you may be right on! Samantha is also a counter kitty and I am at my wits end trying to cure her of that. I don't see all physical discipline as causing either physical harm or mental distress. Of course, it can be overdone, and I'm sure that neither you nor I would ever be guilty of that. Thanks for your post!
You are going to get a ton of criticism over your post, and a bunch of accusations. I've had lots of cats over the years, too, and I see absolutely nothing inhumane about your way of teaching. I have not responded with any physical punishment to Samantha... yet. But I think you may be right on! Samantha is also a counter kitty and I am at my wits end trying to cure her of that. I don't see all physical discipline as causing either physical harm or mental distress. Of course, it can be overdone, and I'm sure that neither you nor I would ever be guilty of that. Thanks for your post!
I am sure you are right! To most posters in this forum my hard swat will be criticized as excessive. I think it surprised me AND my cat, who was then a kitten. But it also worked, and she wasn't hurt, just quite startled. Maybe I overdid it, but it did work, and I have always tried to respond to how the cat responded. If something works, I use it - if it doesn't - I try something else.
Then, too, a lot of times I've just gone with "oh that's just how that one is!" and I just let them be!
In my experience, teaching cats is quite different from teaching dogs. Cats can learn from example, as can dogs, but cats are better at it, I think. Cats also learn more readily from negative reinforcement than dogs do - thus the swat. I don't think most cats think as deviously as dogs. The counter surfing example? If a dog does that, the dog can easily learn it is ok to do that when owner is not present. In my experience, if you get the cat cued in to counter-surfing = bad, it doesn't matter so much whether you are there or not.
When we lived in CA there were tons of feral cats around. We got involved in doing trap, neuter, and release. We also got to watch a lot of kitty litters grow up. The kittens can learn from ONE behavior instance with their mother. Example: we had one litter mama who was a real 'fraidy-cat' when it came to people, or strange things. Her kittens would be all rolling around, fun and games and play, until she alerted and ran away once. Then they were ever after, for their whole lives, 'fraidy-cat' responsive when it came to something strange. I.e. "RUN AWAY!!" That mama had 4 or 5 litters before we were finally able to trap her and get her spayed.
But back on topic for learning. In my experience, most dogs who get a swat get their feelings hurt. Cats might get their feelings hurt, but they get over it. A dog might forgive, but the dog will never forget. Depending on the situation, cats can forgive AND forget. Kittens don't forget, but it isn't the same, I think. Anyway, I'm going on too much!
I think that some people have a higher threshold for cruelty to animals than I am comfortable with. And, some people give their kids a backhand or a belt. I would think that they would mostly keep this private, but coming out in the open with it like the hero did can have its benefits.
In my experience, teaching cats is quite different from teaching dogs. Cats can learn from example, as can dogs, but cats are better at it, I think. Cats also learn more readily from negative reinforcement than dogs do - thus the swat. I don't think most cats think as deviously as dogs. The counter surfing example? If a dog does that, the dog can easily learn it is ok to do that when owner is not present. In my experience, if you get the cat cued in to counter-surfing = bad, it doesn't matter so much whether you are there or not.
Samantha (the 5-month old) is determined to be on my counter, NO MATTER WHAT! I can put her back on the floor ten times in a two-minute period of time and it simply doesn't phase her. Allie, my 6-year-old cat, knows better than to get on the counter when I'm in the room, but when I'm not there, anything goes.
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When we lived in CA there were tons of feral cats around. We got involved in doing trap, neuter, and release. We also got to watch a lot of kitty litters grow up. The kittens can learn from ONE behavior instance with their mother. Example: we had one litter mama who was a real 'fraidy-cat' when it came to people, or strange things.
My last cat (22 years old when she died) saw a squirrel in our yard one day. Granted, that's very unusual, but she made a mad dash to the house like she'd come face-to-face with an alligator.
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But back on topic for learning. In my experience, most dogs who get a swat get their feelings hurt. Cats might get their feelings hurt, but they get over it. A dog might forgive, but the dog will never forget.
Oh, please don't say that. Shortly after I got my little supposedly house-trained dog, he went on a potty-fest throughout my house. #1 and #2 everywhere. I didn't lay a hand on him, but I yelled at him like there was no tomorrow. Of course, I know that was inappropriate, and I felt absolutely heartbroken that I'd done it the next day. He absolutely adores me, and I know that for sure. I just really, really want to believe that he has forgotten that one episode when his mama turned into a raging banshee.
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Depending on the situation, cats can forgive AND forget. Kittens don't forget, but it isn't the same, I think. Anyway, I'm going on too much!
No! I'm actually enjoying your posts very much.
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you certainly can discipline them with a firm,"no!" and it doesn't scar them emotionally. 
