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Old 09-28-2019, 01:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenderFrost View Post
I mean, there has been some progress in last decade, with the dry food - at least they can't fill it with so many chemicals that it can stay unspoiled for a decade anymore (just about 1-2 years now). But, it's still basically poison, just a bit less ridiculous amount of it.


Now, of course, there's always an argument that the chicken from supermarket were fed some antibiotics (and some other stuff), but I'm sure we can all agree that compared to the poison soup of the dry food (especially with the artificial colors - that's just pure evil), it's significantly less unhealthy.
Besides, it's not like the "chicken meal" in the dry food is done from organically raised chicken - it's just the cheapest chicken possible (with the antibiotics) anyway.


I suppose the most pure raw meat would be home-grown, like in my own chicken coup, without introducing any chemicals at all. I bought a house recently so it is an option, just not sure about directly butchering chicken on a weekly basis...




My greatest concern right now is that kitty would be ideally still on the milk, (starting week 11 today), so I'm not sure her digestive system is fully equipped with processing raw meat just yet. However, he's been eating wet food for last 2 weeks, so I believe the digestive system was forced to handle the processed meat (and he doesn't have diarrhea anymore too), so hopefully introducing about 15% of daily intake in terms of raw food is fine.




The cohabitation of the two is going very well. Kitty already sleeps tucked against my Husky during day. At night, I still keep him either in separate room or sleeping with us in the bed (but he is in his cage), on his favorite plush blanket.
Glad the two are becoming friends.

As for an eleven week old kitten still nursing, by this age, many mama cats start to wean their kittens, so switching over to moist food designed for kittens is fine. Kittens will continue to "comfort nurse" much longer, but the milkbar often goes dry. Cuddling your kitten and allowing him/her to knead your beard is a good substitute for the comfort nursing he or she would likely do if he or she were still with the mother cat.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Re feeding the kitten: there are many kitten foods specifically formulated for young kittens. Avoid cow's milk, as it is usually undigestible by kittens. Make sure the kitten has free access to water at all times. Frequent meals are best at present - a healthy adult cat usually does well with two meals per day. Moist canned kitten food may be best for the time being. Don't overconcern yourself about additives now, particularly in kitten food, which is designed specifically for the needs of rapidly growing kittens - however, if your cat is male, you eventually may want to keep an eye on excessive protein in dry foods when he is grown (do get him neutered, of course) as this can exacerbate urinary tract issues.

It's not the protein in dry kibble that causes urinary tract disorders, it's the dry kibble itself.

That it is extremely moisture deficient, and high in carbs, are the main things wrong with kibble, though there is plenty more to say against it.

Vets who say "kibble is fine" are idiots. If they can't be bothered to learn about feline nutrition they should give no "advice" on it at all.

Cats are designed to thrive on a diet high in protein, sourced from meat. Protein and fat are their mainstays, again, sourced from meat, not grains or restaurant grease. All put together in a wet diet, even if it's just canned. (Raw or home cooked preferable but I know that's not for everyone)
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
It's not the protein in dry kibble that causes urinary tract disorders, it's the dry kibble itself.

That it is extremely moisture deficient, and high in carbs, are the main things wrong with kibble, though there is plenty more to say against it.

Vets who say "kibble is fine" are idiots. If they can't be bothered to learn about feline nutrition they should give no "advice" on it at all.

Cats are designed to thrive on a diet high in protein, sourced from meat. Protein and fat are their mainstays, again, sourced from meat, not grains or restaurant grease. All put together in a wet diet, even if it's just canned. (Raw or home cooked preferable but I know that's not for everyone)
It can be both the lack of moisture AND excessive protein.

I've been through this twice with two different older adult neutered male cats dealing with kidney disease. Excess protein can contribute to kidney failure.

Ask your vet if you doubt me - it was a teaching veterinary professor at the University of Tennessee Veterinary School and Hospital who alerted me to this issue and prescribed a special low-protein/high-fatkidney diet catfood for my cat, who had undergone successful surgery there for polycystic kidney disease. He was the first long-haired (Van-alike) cat they had treated with this disorder, which the professor who treated my cat had identified after around twenty neutered male cats showed up with the same thing - small cysts surrounded the kidney or kidneys, preventing both growth and function, a condition believed to be congenital. The research at UT led to articles about this disease being published in professional literature, and additional feline lives saved.

Without this surgery, which took place over 200 miles from my home, plus follow-up treatment for newly diagnosed diabetes plus the prescription kidney diet catfood, my cat would have died in an estimated six weeks. Instead, he lived an additional 14 months (the vets thought all the water he drank due to the previously undiagnosed diabetes helped his kidneys...it was a balancing game to give him enough insulin to help him function without adversely affecting his water intake...).
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Old 09-28-2019, 02:07 PM
 
6,365 posts, read 13,073,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
It can be both the lack of moisture AND excessive protein.

I've been through this twice with two different older adult neutered male cats dealing with kidney disease. Excess protein can contribute to kidney failure.

Ask your vet if you doubt me - it was a teaching veterinary professor at the University of Tennessee Veterinary School and Hospital who alerted me to this issue and prescribed a special low-protein/high-fatkidney diet catfood for my cat, who had undergone successful surgery there for polycystic kidney disease. He was the first long-haired (Van-alike) cat they had treated with this disorder, which the professor who treated my cat had identified after around twenty neutered male cats showed up with the same thing - small cysts surrounded the kidney or kidneys, preventing both growth and function, a condition believed to be congenital. The research at UT led to articles about this disease being published in professional literature, and additional feline lives saved.

Without this surgery, which took place over 200 miles from my home, plus follow-up treatment for newly diagnosed diabetes plus the prescription kidney diet catfood, my cat would have died in an estimated six weeks. Instead, he lived an additional 14 months (the vets thought all the water he drank due to the previously undiagnosed diabetes helped his kidneys...it was a balancing game to give him enough insulin to help him function without adversely affecting his water intake...).

A genetic kidney disease is not the same thing as saying "a high protein diet causes kidney disease".

Certainly a cat with PKD would need special consideration but that has nothing to do with feeding a healthy cat high quality protein sourced from meat.

Kibble itself leads to urinary tract disorders and kidney disease among many other illnesses, it has nothing to do with the amount of protein and everything to do with the lack of moisture and poor quality ingredients.

Cats, generally speaking ( not discussing genetic diseases) are designed to eat a high protein and moderate fat diet, high in moisture, with little to no carbohydrates. The quality of the protein is critical as well, meaning protein from muscle meat, not grains or restaurant grease or any of the other horrible things used in pet food. Kibble is a very poor source of protein and extremely moisture deficient besides. It makes no difference if the kibble is "high protein". It's kibble and is bad for any cat.

I would never ever ask my vet to advise me on diet for my cats. She, like most vets, recommends garbage diets. If I did have a PKD cat I would get nutrition advice from someplace where they actually know something about feline nutrition, which rules out most vets I know. I would of course pay attention to other directives from the vet regarding this, or any other disease, but not nutrition.
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Old 09-28-2019, 02:46 PM
 
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Craig - this is not a mature cat but a toddler taken away from mother too early.

I am glad to hear that you did whatever you possible could. Vaughns are special!!!
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Avoid cow's milk, as it is usually undigestible by kittens.
This is one thing that is puzzling me. As a kid, on the farm, we had several outdoor cats. Every single day we gave them cow's milk and they were killing themselves to drink it. Every single one of them. Never noticed any digestion issues, though of course, with an outdoor cat, who really knows.


Now, those cats were sometimes 7+ years old, but they never ever said no to a cow's milk.


I know, some people might say - cats love dry food, but just because it's junk food doesn't mean it's good for them.


Is it some kind of lactose intolerancy issue or similar ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Frequent meals are best at present - a healthy adult cat usually does well with two meals per day.
Right now, it's around 4-6 times a day, mostly 5x.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
- however, if your cat is male, you eventually may want to keep an eye on excessive protein in dry foods
I don't think if I lived another 30 years that there will be enough progress in terms of chemicals & nutrition in dry food that I will consider dry food for my pets. I suspect they might [hopefully] ditch the artificial colors in next decade, but it's still going to be junk food compared to raw meat.


Because I work from home, I cook for myself every day. So, I work with raw meat every day. It's literally a question of 5 minutes once the meat is out, to cut some small pieces for my pets. No burden at all and it's guaranteed fresh.







Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
keep an eye on excessive protein in dry foods when he is grown (do get him neutered, of course) as this can exacerbate urinary tract issues.
Isn't UTI more frequent because of dry food (cats evolved to get their water intake mostly in food) ?


So, if I completely ditch the dry food, are they still going to be more prone to UTIs because they were not neutered ? Not following here, but haven't researched that area yet.
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Old 09-28-2019, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenderFrost View Post
This is one thing that is puzzling me. As a kid, on the farm, we had several outdoor cats. Every single day we gave them cow's milk and they were killing themselves to drink it. Every single one of them. Never noticed any digestion issues, though of course, with an outdoor cat, who really knows.


Now, those cats were sometimes 7+ years old, but they never ever said no to a cow's milk.


I know, some people might say - cats love dry food, but just because it's junk food doesn't mean it's good for them.


Is it some kind of lactose intolerancy issue or similar ?



Right now, it's around 4-6 times a day, mostly 5x.





I don't think if I lived another 30 years that there will be enough progress in terms of chemicals & nutrition in dry food that I will consider dry food for my pets. I suspect they might [hopefully] ditch the artificial colors in next decade, but it's still going to be junk food compared to raw meat.


Because I work from home, I cook for myself every day. So, I work with raw meat every day. It's literally a question of 5 minutes once the meat is out, to cut some small pieces for my pets. No burden at all and it's guaranteed fresh.








Isn't UTI more frequent because of dry food (cats evolved to get their water intake mostly in food) ?


So, if I completely ditch the dry food, are they still going to be more prone to UTIs because they were not neutered ? Not following here, but haven't researched that area yet.
You are not dealing with v=barn cats who have a pride to support them. It is not about you cutting up a sliver of meat for a cat but about what the cat needs versus what you are giving a creature totally dependent on you.
Man can live on steak/chicken and wine - for a while. Please let me now when your hair falls out or something else is a bit off.
You got an infant and "have not researched yet" weeks into it.
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep View Post
You are not dealing with v=barn cats who have a pride to support them. It is not about you cutting up a sliver of meat for a cat but about what the cat needs versus what you are giving a creature totally dependent on you.
Man can live on steak/chicken and wine - for a while. Please let me now when your hair falls out or something else is a bit off.
You got an infant and "have not researched yet" weeks into it.
Reading comprehension is not exactly your remotely strong suit, eh ?


I'm not giving it milk, as I found out about it before I got it, that it's not recommended, although that particular site didn't give me the scientific info as to why.






Of course, you know that, as I explained in large detail that I'm trying to give it best possible nutrition - you are merely trying to take things out of context and enjoy an argument - you are clearly a screaming sociopath, I can see that behavior from miles away, as sociopaths have only several arguing techniques they constantly use, and you're a textbook example of them - so please continue - it's very entertaining
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:39 PM
 
395 posts, read 112,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenderFrost View Post
so hopefully introducing about 15% of daily intake in terms of raw food is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep View Post
Raw feeding a tiny kitten or a cat for that does not mean cutting up a piece of chicken!
Oh, I see now what's the problem. You don't understand complex/advanced math concepts like percentage!




There's no shame in it, just admit it you're challenged in that regard, it's alright




So, the kitty is eating 85% of her food in form of wet food, which could be loosely translated as great majority (way, way more than half - wait - do you understand the concept of "half" ?) of nutrients are still coming in as they should, and only very small portion is raw meat.




Hope that makes it clear, if this is still too difficult for you to comprehend, please, by all means, ask additional clarifying questions
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Midwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenderFrost View Post
The Vet has shocked me with his recommendations to not feed the cat with raw meat ("ever !"), but instead to switch to dry food instantly.


When I asked, how could it possibly be a good idea to give it food full of chemicals that can make it survive unspoiled on store shelves for up to a decade, he just said - "it's fine, really". WTF ?


It all made sense when on my departure, I was given a huge "complimentary" bag with dry food. Of course ! Well, hopefully he can handle the medical side of things, even if nutritional side seriously lacks.


Then again, what if some big-pharma offers the vet some "complimentary" benefits to him to push for some unnecessary medical treatment ? Hmmm.....




Kitty is 10 weeks old so I started to complement his wet food with raw chicken meat, cut to tiny pieces. No bones, yet. He really, really enjoyed his first raw meal, making super fun growling voices (like he was talking to the food, or something).


I made the mistake with my Husky, waiting too long while she was a pup, and of course, as expected, she never made the transition to raw meat after 9 months. Longest I made it was seeing her hungry for 3 days (given how stubborn she is, I'm sure she would stay hungry for 3-5 more days easily), I just couldn't handle more, so raw food never happened with my Husky, and I instead cook chicken for her.


But now, that the kitty ate raw meat, of course, Husky had to have that too. I just might be able to switch her to raw food too, thanks to the kitty. For a first time, she ate quite a lot. Will definitely keep on this momentum.


I'm not going to get rid of wet food for another 4-6 months, till the beast fully grows, then it should be much easier to manage the non-protein nutrients missing from the raw meat.
As you say, your vet is getting incentives from that cat food company.
If he's honestly saying dry food only, he knows about as much about pet nutrition as most human doctors know about human nutrition. That was a big complaint of my mother's, that docs didn't know diddly about nutrition and especially sugar.

A list of ingredients on that bag probably says, wheat, corn, grain, this, that, something else.
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