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Old 09-22-2010, 01:55 PM
 
435 posts, read 733,373 times
Reputation: 75

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Come on, you read chapter 3

How about chapter 2...credit...oh they call it rebate not prebate on the bill, should I say you didn't read it too. So IRS still exist or the society security administration named in the bill, where is the administrative saving lol...

Let's look at the big picture, the high income tax % decreased, so where the extract money going to come from...yes, from the middle class. You like graph how about this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/NRST-percentile.png (broken link)

And that's excluding gift and estate tax which the government has to find other resources to fill the hole. The graph is based on Fair tax bill model system btw not a straight national sales tax.
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Old 09-22-2010, 02:38 PM
 
4,465 posts, read 7,019,889 times
Reputation: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by OleTomCat View Post
If you actually read the bill you would know that the prebate is based on the national poverty level, you get a prebate for all taxes on goods up to that level, therefore you are only taxed on anything you spend above the necessities of life.....
First off, if you want to know, the national poverty level number is going to be re-worked in the next few years, unless the wackos keep power for any length of time- I bet they won't- as it no longer reflects the true level of poverty.

Secondly, even the data JimmyCH shows from the bill itself, indicates that it is a regressive tax. And that is from the people pushing this time-bomb.

Lastly, what this will do (applying Conservative Economic dogma- as taxing 'something' (by their ideology) causes consumption of that 'something' to drop) will be to drive consumer spending into the ground.

And since the government's revenue stream under this plan will be based solely on consumer spending, as is our entire economy................

This will make 2007 look like 1948, when the TPers adopt it- if they ever get in charge.

Last edited by Geechie North; 09-22-2010 at 02:55 PM..
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 15,096,248 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyCh View Post
Come on, you read chapter 3

How about chapter 2...credit...oh they call it rebate not prebate on the bill, should I say you didn't read it too. So IRS still exist or the society security administration named in the bill, where is the administrative saving lol...

Let's look at the big picture, the high income tax % decreased, so where the extract money going to come from...yes, from the middle class. You like graph how about this one:



And that's excluding gift and estate tax which the government has to find other resources to fill the hole. The graph is based on Fair tax bill model system btw not a straight national sales tax.
Link the source, it says retail sales tax not "The FairTax"
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 15,096,248 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geechie North View Post
First off, if you want to know, the national poverty level number is going to be re-worked in the next few years, unless the wackos keep power for any length of time- I bet they won't- as it no longer reflects the true level of poverty.

Secondly, even the data JimmyCH shows from the bill itself, indicates that it is a regressive tax. And that is from the people pushing this time-bomb.

Lastly, what this will do (applying Conservative Economic dogma- as taxing 'something' (by their ideology) causes consumption of that 'something' to drop) will be to drive consumer spending into the ground.

And since the government's revenue stream under this plan will be based solely on consumer spending, as is our entire economy................

This will make 2007 look like 1948, when the TPers adopt it- if they ever get in charge.
Jimmy didn't show any data from "the FairTax"....

It doesn't matter what the poverty level is, that is the basis for the prebate/rebate....

Once again you haven't read the bill so you don't understand you are arguing points that are not there, We are not increasing taxes on anything just changing the source of the taxes, people will still spend money, they will have more money in their pockets to spend since they will be bringing home their entire check and getting money from the the prebate/rebate....
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:54 PM
 
435 posts, read 733,373 times
Reputation: 75
Here you go Tom

http://web.archive.org/web/200706130...Reform_Ch9.pdf

The graph is on page 6...the graph without prebate is on page 4.

"It doesn't matter what the poverty level is, that is the basis for the prebate/rebate...."

Of course it does, it is a multiplier of prebate/rebate dollar amount...a published national level at 10,000 vs 20,000 will mean the check is either twice as small or twice as big. If government doesn't want to give back as much money, it can manipulate the data to make the poverty level lower.

Last edited by JimmyCh; 09-22-2010 at 10:19 PM..
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Aiken, South Carolina, US of A
1,765 posts, read 3,864,408 times
Reputation: 3571
The original poster made a comment about the Health care plan that our President proposed and Congress has passed into law.
The health care plan they passed wont work.
The insurance companies have already stated today that they are not issuing any more "child only" plans. Which means, in a nutshell, they are getting around the health care bill Congress passed.
Gee, who saw that coming?
It won't work because as long as Health care is based soley on profit in this country,
and stockholders demand a good return, which they always get, people will get the short end of the stick.
This country is not a democracy.
Decomocracy is an illusion.
We live in a Capitalist country.
Our politicans don't work for us, they work for the big special interests that rule
the country.
Now they can donate as much money as they want and hand pick the candidates
openly, instead of hiding the money like they had in the past.
I am going to answer the original posters comment as a Capitalist.
Why bother with spending any money at all on health care in this country anyway?
Why should I, have to pay for anything for anyone?
End Social Security, the trust fund is full of IOU's, so just cut it off.
End Medicare, let the elderly take mortages on their homes again and spend
that on their health care when they are old, good for Capitalists, excellent
retrun on my stocks.
Get rid of most of the government agencies that are ridiculous, that we don't need,
and give the Veterns a cap on the amount of money that they can spend on
Health care when they come home over their lifetime.
The country is broke, right? Well, cut the spedning all across the board.
Dog eat Dog.
Keep the taxes low for the rich, the true Capitalists, they are going to invest
their money overseas for a great return on their money, after all, foreign
countries need jobs! The Chineese need jobs!
Ask Warren Buffet, he'll tell you all about it!
The national income tax won't work either, just in case anyone is wondering.
The people who spend money in this country is not the rich, despite what most
people think, it's what is left of the middle class and the poor.
Now, I will come back to my true opinion,
That isn't really how I feel as an American, so I guess I am not that cut throat.
Americans have to realize that the USA isn't run for Americans and hasn't been
for decades. America has been sold to the world, the Global economy, well, it means that the USA
is owned by every country all over the globe.
We are in such debt to sooo many countries, we are not in control anymore.
The politicans who get into power in Washington in November will be chosen
not by the American people, but by the Corporations that put them there.
Follow the money trail.
Don't believe half of what you see, and little of what you hear.
Oh, and stop watching Fox noise. It'll rot your brain.
Try BBC America and local news and watch the money on Bloomberg.
Thanks for reading this, I know I sound crazy, but I hope I'm wrong,
But I don't know...............
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 15,096,248 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyCh View Post
Here you go Tom

http://web.archive.org/web/200706130...Reform_Ch9.pdf

The graph is on page 6...the graph without prebate is on page 4.

"It doesn't matter what the poverty level is, that is the basis for the prebate/rebate...."

Of course it does, it is a multiplier of prebate/rebate dollar amount...a published national level at 10,000 vs 20,000 will mean the check is either twice as small or twice as big. If government doesn't want to give back as much money, it can manipulate the data to make the poverty level lower.
Won't open post the source link
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 15,096,248 times
Reputation: 1351
This explains the difference between Inclusive and Exclusive taxes and the comparison, 34% Exc = 25% Inc....

[SIZE=4]Box 9.1. Comparing "Tax-Exclusive" and "Tax-Inclusive" Rates[/SIZE][SIZE=1][SIZE=1]The 34 percent tax rate mentioned in the introduction to this chapter is a tax-exclusive rate. Sales tax rates are typically quoted on a tax-exclusive basis, while income tax rates typically are quoted on a tax-inclusive basis. If a good costs $100 and bears an additional $34 sales tax, the tax-exclusive sales tax rate is 34 percent. The tax-inclusive rate is 25 percent -- $34 (the tax paid) divided by $134 (the total amount the consumer paid). An individual who earns $134 and pays $34 in income taxes would think of themselves as paying approximately 25 percent ($34/$134 = 0.254) of their income in taxes.
Although tax-exclusive and tax-inclusive rates are both valid ways of thinking about tax rates, the easiest way to compare the retail sales tax rate to the state sales taxes paid by most Americans is to consider the tax-exclusive rate. On the other hand, it is appropriate to compare the retail sales tax rate with current income tax rates by utilizing the tax-inclusive rate. For ease of understanding, this chapter uses tax-exclusive rates unless otherwise specified in the text. Tax-inclusive rates are provided in the Appendix.
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 15,096,248 times
Reputation: 1351
The problem with that report is that they are using the Exclusive rate which isn't correct, if you are comparing it with income taxes which are inclusive.....

Most people are paying that much or more today -- much of it is just hidden from view. The income tax bracket most people fall into is 15 percent, and all wage earners pay 7.65 percent in payroll taxes. That’s 23 percent right there, without taking into account the 7.65 percent employer matching! On top of that, you have to add in the business taxes and associated compliance costs passed on to consumers in higher prices.

Effective tax rates vs. stated tax rates
Because the 23-percent FairTax rate of $0.23 on every dollar spent is not imposed on necessities, an individual spending $30,000 pays an effective tax rate of only 15.5 percent, not 23 percent. That same individual will pay 17.3 percent of his or her income to federal taxes under current law. See effective tax rates for a family of four at various spending levels in Figure 2.
[CENTER]Figure 2: 2007 effective tax rates

[/CENTER]
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Summerville
7,934 posts, read 15,096,248 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by OleTomCat View Post
Won't open post the source link
Got it to work...
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