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I don't "take issue" with your opinions; I simply disagree and state why. That's the purpose of this discussion board and you shouldn't expect everyone to think like you. There's nothing contentious in my responses whatsoever.
I agree that there's no standardized definition of "Southern," but seeing as though the South is the nation's largest region, your definition seems to be a bit narrow. There will obviously be variations within such an expansive region.
Question: How is Mobile a hub in the same vein as Atlanta? Not sure what you mean by that.
Sorry I took it as contentious then. My apologies.
And my version of Southern may indeed be narrow, but it helps me to limit places that are a result of multiple influences, like New Orleans, than one that is more purely Southern. Many, if not most, from Louisiana consider themselves to be Creole first. In my opinion, to be Southern, that must be your first inclination.
Mobile served the plantation economy that surrounded it. Much like Atlanta did. Atlanta with railroads and Mobile as a port. They were both part of the plantation economy, just more in the distribution phase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Charleston has always hosted transplants. It’s been a military town since the Revolutionary War.
If it wasn’t for transplants and outside investment, about half the Penninsula would still be dilapidated after countless fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, bombardments, poor economic conditions, and age.
This is very true. An historical analysis of the area south of Broad will show architectural influences from around the world.
I'd probably recommend a non-touristy city to someone who wanted to experience authentic Southern culture. Try Lynchburg, VA, Greensboro, NC, Florence, SC, Macon, GA, Montgomery, AL, Baton Rouge, LA, etc.
I wouldnt tell someone to go to greensboro florence or macon. They would be bored out their mind. Nothings wrong with a touristy city. Plenty of other things to do
I disagree with this. Charleston continues to maintain much more of its Southern roots than Atlanta. Perhaps that is because Atlanta is a much more metropolitan city than Charleston is. Southern is a culture and a lifestyle. I believe Charleston has changed as it's grown, but I don't believe its lost much of what it is to be Southern at a macro level.
Atlanta was probably a poor choice of comparison, but it's where I'm from and what I know. Being among the largest cities in the country, it's level of "melting pot-ness" is greater than Charleston, but on a scaled down level, it's not hard to see that Charleston is swinging that way. Part of it is the revolving door nature of being a military town, but there's also the increase in industry. Boeing, Volvo, Daimler, etc. are bringing more people in. In fact, Boeing brought me here, though it was my ticket back to the south from the PNW.
I think all this distinguishing one part of the south from another is pretty relative, though. I've mentioned once in another post that all it takes are 10 or more years in a place like Seattle to blur the state border lines of the south.
I wouldnt tell someone to go to greensboro florence or macon. They would be bored out their mind. Nothings wrong with a touristy city. Plenty of other things to do
There are things to do in those cities as well, plus they can get more of an authentic, everyday Southern experience.
There are things to do in those cities as well, plus they can get more of an authentic, everyday Southern experience.
What is there to see in florence other than a handful of things. Outside of that the city is boring. A handful of decent resturants. Shopping is a lack. Downtown is going through a make over now but still a buss. Being through there a couple times and dont sre anything Fascinating about it
And my version of Southern may indeed be narrow, but it helps me to limit places that are a result of multiple influences, like New Orleans, than one that is more purely Southern. Many, if not most, from Louisiana consider themselves to be Creole first. In my opinion, to be Southern, that must be your first inclination.
Creoles (and Cajuns) are mainly located in south Louisiana. Ask any Louisianan and they'll tell you the northern part of the state is quite different than the southern part. It would be like someone thinking practically all of South Carolina were defined by Gullah culture.
Quote:
Mobile served the plantation economy that surrounded it. Much like Atlanta did. Atlanta with railroads and Mobile as a port. They were both part of the plantation economy, just more in the distribution phase.
Very interesting perspective since Mobile and New Orleans are very similar. Mobile has a Creole population and is home to the nation's first Mardi Gras; historically it had just as many outside influences as New Orleans and was under the jurisdiction of several nations. Mobile is arguably the city most similar to New Orleans in the U.S.
Atlanta is a Piedmont/Upper South city and wasn't part of the plantation economy in any real sense; it wasn't even a big city prior to the Civil War. In 1850 the city had just over 2500 people with less than 500 being slaves. Atlanta was founded by the Georgia Legislature about two decades before the Civil War as a railroad hub to link Savannah/coastal Georgia with the markets of the Midwest. Mobile, by contrast, was founded well over a century before Atlanta, actually imported lots of slaves, and its economy was much more agrarian in nature. Along with other Southern port cities, Mobile wasn't part of the plantation economy "in the distribution phase;" it was ground zero for the plantation economy. In 1860, about 21% of Fulton County's population was enslaved but the total county population was just under 15K people. In that same year, 25% of Mobile County's population was enslaved which equaled nearly 12K people--rivaling the total population of Fulton County. Atlanta and Mobile couldn't be more different in this regard. You can read more about Mobile's history here.
I'm not so sure about that. Most transplants I've encountered are from Ohio, Pennsylvania, and northeastern coastal areas, like New York and New Jersey. I'm one of those "other parts of the south" transplants, but I can count the number of people I've met like myself on one hand. Any time I go somewhere where there's a lot of people and you can pick up on the accents of those talking around you, the prevailing ones are those which are distinctly northern. In that respect, Charleston has become a lot like Atlanta. A southern city, but not very southern in terms of population within the city limits.
Last year the most new residents in Berkeley County came from Charleston County. According to P&C in 2014 looking at previous years, the top states moving to Charleston was FL, NC, VA, GA, NY. NJ, TX, CT, and PA were up there too, but Ohio didn't crack the top 10. Apparently Berkeley and Dorchester were pretty popular with Jacksonville and Biloxi. And you can't forget people from the rural parts of the state moving in as well.
But how does accents not make Charleston southern? What do the northern folks do so differently that it dilutes Charleston's southerness? People try to say northerners move here to ruin our southerness, but of all the people I've met from NV, MI, HI, NY, Mexico, the UK, MA, CT, NJ, CA, etc, Charleston's southern charm, education, and jobs, is what drew them here. Shoot some of them act almost more southern than me, having oyster roasts on the beach and what not.
IMO Atlanta is still generally southern too. Just because it has a diverse population and skyscrapers doesn't bring it down. It's still the home of Chick Fil A and civil rights, sweet tea, church on sundays, hunting and fishing, authentic southern food, is a college football mecca, has southern political problems, Protestant religious, and holds plenty of other southern traditions. And you still melt in the summer. It's the hub of the south after all.
I agree with Insull, being a small town with pick ups and mom and pops doesn't make you southern. And it's not just the people. The culture, architecture, climate, geography, history are all important, and Charleston has that.
Charleston is not max level, Forrest Gump southern, but not many places are anymore. Yet Charleston still feels more southern than most, and always will imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Charleston has always hosted transplants. It’s been a military town since the Revolutionary War.
If it wasn’t for transplants and outside investment, about half the Penninsula would still be dilapidated after countless fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, bombardments, poor economic conditions, and age.
Pretty much. Apparently the reason Charleston gets so many Alaskans is because of the military. When Charleston was not growing, it was a mess. Now it's growing and is thriving. South Carolina sent more people to other states until 1970, now people are coming back.
Creoles (and Cajuns) are mainly located in south Louisiana. Ask any Louisianan and they'll tell you the northern part of the state is quite different than the southern part. It would be like someone thinking practically all of South Carolina were defined by Gullah culture.
Very interesting perspective since Mobile and New Orleans are very similar. Mobile has a Creole population and is home to the nation's first Mardi Gras; historically it had just as many outside influences as New Orleans and was under the jurisdiction of several nations. Mobile is arguably the city most similar to New Orleans in the U.S.
Atlanta is a Piedmont/Upper South city and wasn't part of the plantation economy in any real sense; it wasn't even a big city prior to the Civil War. In 1850 the city had just over 2500 people with less than 500 being slaves. Atlanta was founded by the Georgia Legislature about two decades before the Civil War as a railroad hub to link Savannah/coastal Georgia with the markets of the Midwest. Mobile, by contrast, was founded well over a century before Atlanta, actually imported lots of slaves, and its economy was much more agrarian in nature. Along with other Southern port cities, Mobile wasn't part of the plantation economy "in the distribution phase;" it was ground zero for the plantation economy. In 1860, about 21% of Fulton County's population was enslaved but the total county population was just under 15K people. In that same year, 25% of Mobile County's population was enslaved which equaled nearly 12K people--rivaling the total population of Fulton County. Atlanta and Mobile couldn't be more different in this regard. You can read more about Mobile's history here.
You're talking 1860. I'm talking 1960. Personal perspective. Again.
You're talking 1860. I'm talking 1960. Personal perspective. Again.
Huh? I asked you how Mobile was a hub like Atlanta and you went into detail about plantation economies which I only mentioned in passing. And what does the year 1960 have to do with anything? I wasn't born yet but I'm pretty sure there were no plantation economies in either city that year.
Huh? I asked you how Mobile was a hub like Atlanta and you went into detail about plantation economies which I only mentioned in passing. And what does the year 1960 have to do with anything? I wasn't born yet but I'm pretty sure there were no plantation economies in either city that year.
Atlanta and Mobile were distribution centers for the plantations that surrounded them. Mobile had an obvious advantage as a port, but it doesn't change the fact that both existed to move materials.
Then you wanted to talk about percentage of slave population. Granted, a lot more slaves came into Mobile than Atlanta, but that's fairly obvious given geography. Also, you spoke of Mobile being more like New Orleans than Atlanta. Maybe so in 1860, but not in 1960. Mobile is way more redneck than New Orleans. It is much more like the state where it exists. People of Mobile like to see themselves as more cultured and refined. It just isn't so in reality.
Anyway, you can have the last response. We've drug this out long enough.
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