The Confederate flag (Columbia, Charleston, Summerville: crimes, how much, store)

[Geechie North]

Originally Posted by Aconite

Then a whole bunch of those folks were completely daft, because you can't put a plantation on the side of a mountain.

The "Southern Dream" may have existed for a certain segment. For others, though, the dream was to get as far away from the cities, the people, and back into the mountains as possible (especially the multitudes of Scots who ended up here during the Clearances). For others, it was something else entirely-- starting a business or preaching the word or some other vocation. Probably, things being what they were, for a lot of them the "dream" never got further than full bellies and a dry place to sleep.

Claiming all Southerners wanted to own Tara (complete with Mammy and and Prissy) is like saying all contemporary Yankees want a McMansion and a Mexican housekeeper (papers optional). Probably some do. Maybe a lot do. But to paint wholesale with a broad brush is misleading and really kinda silly.

Very few (by %) people lived in mountainous areas.

And those areas were the ones most pro-Union. I'm thinking E. Tennessee, and NE Alabama, where Northern Regiments were recruited, and W. Va., which of course left Va, and wanted to be called "Kanawah" ( I believe it is) after the river vs any mention of Virginia.

But for the vast majority of white Southeners the aim of their lives was to enter the planter class via owning blacks as property.

Here's a good measure of the plantation area: look at the 200-day growing season (minimum for short-staple cotton), and plot that line vis-a-vis the order of states leaving the Union.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by rubber_factory

Some of them are facts. Much of what you say is not factual, it is only your opinion about what the flag means to large groups of people, many whom you've never met.

These things you mention - murdering innocents, terrorism a la the KKK, ideals and beliefs not in the best interest of all it's citizens, government sanctioned oppression of an entire race ala Jim Crow laws - these have also occured under the U.S. Flag, and outside the boundaries of the south. Do you think of these things when you see the U.S. flag, or have you diluted[sic] yourself into thinking that they didn't happen?

A few minor points: the Ku Klux Klan didn't exist in the antebellum or war-era South (or North). It was created in 1865. They may have appropriated the symbol later, but so have the creamed corn wrestlettes of Daytona's Bike Week-- and nobody is claiming the Stars & Bars symbolizes the Jolly Green Giant.
Jim Crow laws are also a relic of Reconstruction, ftr. And as such, like the KKK, were created under the 38 star US flag.

Now personally, I don't really have any attachment to the Battle Flag. I have ancestors on both sides of that fight. None of 'em owned slaves. They were just too poor to buy their way out of conscription and too bull-headed (or too liquored up) to hide.
Fly it, don't fly it, I don't much care. (I'd probably put it right where it is now, if it were up to me alone.)
But when people try to make an argument that the South, symbolized by the Battle Flag, has a corner on wrongheaded racist beliefs (and oddly, most of the racial epithets I know I learned from the Long Island branch of the family), I have a perverse urge to go fly a really big one.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Geechie North

But for the vast majority of white Southeners the aim of their lives was to enter the planter class via owning blacks as property.

I don't suppose you can back that up?

The fact that states seceded is of pretty minimal use here, since legislators have a long history of voting the interests of the wealthy over those of the majority. (And just ftr, plantations grew more than just cotton-- tea, indigo, sugar, tobacco... though certainly cotton is firmly implanted in the mind via pop culture references.)

[SCBeaches]

Just take Geechie with a grain of salt and a Tylenol like the rest of us do.....

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by SCBeaches

Just take Geechie with a grain of salt and a Tylenol like the rest of us do.....

Ah, c'mon, don't I get anything better than Tylenol? I don't have to work tomorrow...

[Geechie North]

Originally Posted by Aconite

I don't suppose you can back that up?

The fact that states seceded is of pretty minimal use here, since legislators have a long history of voting the interests of the wealthy over those of the majority. (And just ftr, plantations grew more than just cotton-- tea, indigo, sugar, tobacco... though certainly cotton is firmly implanted in the mind via pop culture references.)

The Civil War | PBS

I used short staple cotton as the example because it is the most robust of the crops you mentioned, (with the exception of tobacco, which was big in VA), in temperate climates.

Which is why Eli Whitney's engine (or "gin") was such a critical component of the period.

Tea??

Indigo was an 18th century product, discarded for the most part due to process improvements in the die industry.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Geechie North

The Civil War | PBS

I used short staple cotton as the example because it is the most robust of the crops you mentioned, (with the exception of tobacco, which was big in VA), in temperate climates.

Which is why Eli Whitney's engine (or "gin") was such a critical component of the period.

Tea??

Indigo was an 18th century product, discarded for the most part due to process improvements in the die industry.

Oh, you are not seriously using a PBS show as an historical source. Wikipedia is next, maybe?

And yes, tea-- admittedly not a primary crop in the sense of some of the other items you ignored, but grown in Maryland and a couple of other places, including (intermittently) the Low Country.

We're rather getting away from the topic of the flag, though.

[Geechie North]

I'm sorry,

But if you don't understand the gravity of the PBS documentary, then it is no use corresponding with you re: this subject.

Tea was first introduced (or tried to be) into Ga in the late 1700's. It was tried a few times, post war (Civil) in SC to no avail.

There is (perhaps was,now) a single commercial venture on Wadmalaw Island in the 1990's. It was a whopping 40 acres in size.

A newspaper source (NY?) was the source of the tea stories from MD and Pa. They were false.

[sumter native]

Why is it the south is known for owning slaves, we didnt have a monopoly on it the north had more than their share as well...And lets not forget the blacks that owned slaves...never hear much about all that do ya..
I for one am completely sick and tired of government and people tearing down my heritage just so they can advance their own...
I also feel that the north is still reconstructing the south by way of the massive influx of different cultures races and beliefs thru military bases and posts all over the south, We have more bases here than any where in the world, and millions of outsiders come and go thru our communities every year and leave/take a little with each tour of duty...
I kinda figure they are still worried about us too and what better place to stop an advance than from right smack in the middle of the enemy? not saying anyone is gonna attack but its a strategic manuever just in case...
Dont say them bases are here because of the weather lol we got posts in some pretty in hospitable places lol the government doesnt care about the weather where the troops are lol
just some thoughts on the whole war of northern aggression thing..
One of lincolns quoes really sticks in my mind and it was "If the south secceeds who will pay for the government"
I dont remember where I found it but I can look around after work....

[sumter native]

Yeah we had tea here and still do...
Look up Charleston tea plantation onya search engine..We had huge rice plantations as well, Where I dive on the Cooper river there are still dikes and levys built to hold water for yep you guessed it RICE lol
The south has an amazing history if people would get over the idea that we here were always and will always be slave owners...
I dont see anyone bashing africa for selling their own people into slavery,or taking over other African tribes in them tribal wars they had and are still having to this day, then taking the prisoners that were not killed and selling them for whatever they were getting for selling their own people, but now alot of blacks want to get back to their heritage and destroy mine...
I hate selective memory or the way people only choose to see what fits into their own perception of how things were..
Remember the history books are written by the victors...so only one side of the story is told,
and lets not forget the blacks that went off to war with their mean ole slave owners..To protect them,
I dont condone slavery but things werent like its written ,alot of the slave owner relationships were full of mutual respect, as I grew up we still had a black nana and lemme tell you them old black nanas didnt mess around lol they were the voice of the house even dad wouldnt contradict nanna lol,
I reckon what Im saying is dont just read them books and decide that it is fact come on down and go to some of these small towns and museums and look at the pictures and letters that were written by the ACTUAL PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE, talk about inbedded reporters these guys were right in the middle of it..and writig home to tell family and friends what was happening, I have read a heap of those letters and I havent seen any that mentioned they would be glad to get back home so they could whip someone in a cotton field...
Now I gotta get to work so I can fund the guvmint lol (if it dont start raining lol)welders dont work too good in the rain