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Old 07-06-2018, 10:04 AM
 
Location: 304
5,069 posts, read 6,767,635 times
Reputation: 1694

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
I do not believe anyone is scared of a roundabout, in fact I rather like them. But, like all things in engineering, the application of the engineering needs to fit the need and perhaps more so, the expected future need. Jefferson Road is already 400% above traffic load for a road of this type, usage and location in comparison to other roads in West Virginia like it. That 400% over load is based on forced use, not demand, which is higher. How much higher, we cannot know at this time.


A roundabout is not a high capacity interchange. It is a continual flow interchange. That means it has a flow rate and under nominal conditions traffic will flow at the interchange at the design rate. Jefferson Road does not have a continual flow rate demand, it has an ebb/flow demand that varies from virtual no flow off peak to 400% plus at peak. A roundabout is not the answer for this need.


As for Kanawha Turnpike access.


Priorities must be established.


The primary priority - the reason this is being done in the first place - is to move traffic from US-119 (Corridor G) to US-60 (MacCorkle Avenue) in both directions at the expected and future load.


The first hurdle to do this is eliminate the intersection with the rail lines running parallel to Kanawha Turnpike.


Those two aspects form the primary need and primary hurdle of the project.

Secondaries include:


Accessing Kanawha Turnpike,


An alternate egress into the shopping center of Trace Forks and by extension to Dudley Farms shopping Center along RHL Boulevard,


Access to various commercial and residential needs along the existing Jefferson Road route at the upper and lower ends, these could be considered separate needs as they are not co-located,


The inclusion of these secondary concerns into the primary project can only be undertaken if they do not hinder the primary need.


The egress into and out of Trace Fork, is a luxury and while it would alleviate some of the traffic load at the Jefferson Road/US-119 interchange, it is not critical. It would not hamper the primary need and its inclusion into the project is reduced to the burden of cost.


The access for the upper portion of Jefferson Road by commercial and residential need is not avoidable but could be limited with a feeder strip that tied that demand into the egress from Trace Fork, thereby reducing the number of interchanges to one. This is crucial. Each interchange acts as a break on the flow demand and reducing it to one that is at best an auxiliary through even peak demand will put the least impact on the main arterial flow rate.


The lower access by commercial and residential need is also handled with a single intersection in the published design for this reason and is also unavoidable.


This leaves the one secondary need that is avoidable, would be a luxury and would impact traffic flow for the primary and other secondary demands: Kanawha Turnpike access.


In other cases that I am aware of, this problem has been a compromise in that partial access but not full is allowed.


In this case, geography would dictate that east bound Kanawha Turnpike traffic could merge from a right hand lane into traffic moving from MacCorkle to Corridor G.


Traffic flow from Corridor G to MacCorkle Avenue could have a right hand merge onto East bound Kanawha Turnpike allowing access to the Tech center and the east bound I-64 interchange further along as well as the back entrance into the CBD for South Charleston.


Traffic would be denied access to west bound Kanawha Turnpike from either direction on Jefferson Road.


Kanawha Turnpike would not have an interchange with Jefferson Road except for the two merging lanes.


The entire reason the roundabout is proposed is because of space limitations and the huge cost of building several bridges over a creek that floods heavily, a rail line, residences, commercial outlets and government facilities. It was not chosen because it is the best solution to the problem.
Not exactly the same scenario, but a heavily traveled road in Morgantown (705/Mileground) has a traffic circle that has relieved a lot of pressure. Traffic there was arguably among the worst in the state, however they have decreased that significantly. It still is heavy, but it isn't bumper to bumper!

I think the biggest concern that I am reading from your posts is the idea of connecting Jefferson and KT. I think it is crucial that traffic can exit and enter at KT. Coming from Downtown and Montrose, it is important to offer a smoother solution to getting to Southridge. Not everyone will go that way, but it will ease pressure on South Hills/Oakwood.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:54 AM
 
700 posts, read 429,295 times
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Yes and no. I am actually fine with an interchange between Jefferson Road and Kanawha Turnpike in all four directions if it can be done properly in the geographic confines and cost allowance. I do not believe that is possible though, hence why the design team stuck in a roundabout to solve both the money and space limitations.

It is not the solution for this location. There are those that romanticize the roundabout but that is not the whole story of them. While they are cheaper, they also have a lot of accidents when pushed beyond a flow rate limitation or are in places where people are not familiar with their proper usage. One accident on a roundabout ends flow in all directions unlike a conventional interchange that will have continued use in the other three directions.


The site could be provided with a conventional interchange at a much higher cost. But, if the state is unwilling or unable to infuse additional finances for that set up, then limiting if not omitting an interchange between Jefferson and KT is the best choice.

To be a bit pedantic, Kanawha County has lost 100,000 people from the time most of the traffic infrastructure was designed and built. Having gone from 300,000 to 200,000 changes a lot of need and all of the issues left in the county are from unforeseen growth along roads that were barely a country lane in the 60s and 70s. Chiefly, Corridor G and all of the commercial, retail and residential builds along it. The only areas of the county that need serious attention are minor locations that have always needed fixed such as widening the Big Tyler Road in Cross Lanes to a minimum of 2 lanes each way with a central turning lane and raised medians.


I do not believe that the demand for an interchange between Jefferson and KT is needed. The bulk of all the traffic is running from MacCorkle to US-119 and back down. I can see a need and the open terrain to allow it, for an exit onto KT heading towards I-64 and Tech Park coming from US-119 heading to MacCorkle. I can also see a similar need and space available (barely) for an exit from KT onto Jefferson heading towards US-119. More than that and we are talking a lot of dirt being moved and a much higher cost. There is not a lot of need to make the other two transitions.


With no connection at Jefferson for Kanawha Turnpike and taking out the railroad crossing, traffic on Kanawha Turnpike should flow very nicely east and west. Travelers on that new road would meet existing interchanges further along that are underutilized. I really do not see the problem and I say that as someone that uses Jefferson on a daily basis.
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:37 AM
 
Location: 304
5,069 posts, read 6,767,635 times
Reputation: 1694
Looks like construction could start this summer on Jefferson Rd. This will be inconvenient for a while, but will be worth the temporary hassle in order to have the upgraded interchange and traffic flow.

https://wchstv.com/news/local/south-...d-project-soon
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:25 AM
 
700 posts, read 429,295 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscross309 View Post
Looks like construction could start this summer on Jefferson Rd. This will be inconvenient for a while, but will be worth the temporary hassle in order to have the upgraded interchange and traffic flow.

https://wchstv.com/news/local/south-...d-project-soon


I have been keeping up on this project because I use this corridor daily. The Highway Commission does not have as of the date of this posting a set plan yet. That is a huge concern. This means since the time this all started prices have been elevating monthly, quarterly, annually. Instead of locking in bids with escalators we have yet to enter the open market and call in proposals.

The whole thing smells.

Mayor Frank has a TIFF for Park Place that includes a rather hefty cost for fill, but he is banking on the Jefferson road to provide that fill for free. Where pray tell does that money actually go? you know, the money that the TIFF is setting aside for fill but is getting for free.

I feel I must confess, I detest Mayor Frank. If you ever meet him, he has all of the accoutrements of a mob boss.
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:59 PM
 
1,493 posts, read 1,367,868 times
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Why does it seem that every construction related project in this state takes a long time to get started? For example, it's going on three years since the flooding that ruined the schools in Clendenin and there still isn't a plan in place for a replacement. And this project has taken what a year to get moving since the properties were purchased? Geez.
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Old 04-10-2019, 04:51 PM
 
700 posts, read 429,295 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeros71 View Post
Why does it seem that every construction related project in this state takes a long time to get started? For example, it's going on three years since the flooding that ruined the schools in Clendenin and there still isn't a plan in place for a replacement. And this project has taken what a year to get moving since the properties were purchased? Geez.



West Virginia government at every level from the tiny hamlet up to the state level is as corrupt as it comes. Louisiana on a bad day might beat out West Virginia but only just and then not often. Everything here requires lining pockets and payola in the backroom to get things done. Some of that is because as a culture, West Virginians are comparatively uneducated and socially simple. I hate that it is true but the people that make up a large portion of this state's population are as dumb as a box of rocks and proud of it. When you have the masses exhibiting that sort of intellect and wisdom all of the politicians can be Mr. Haney from Green Acres.

Many crooks run for office but as an electorate we always seem to showcase our astute sense of villainous awareness by electing only the most crooked. Yeah West Virginians!
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Old 04-11-2019, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Winfield, WV
1,842 posts, read 3,385,847 times
Reputation: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
West Virginia government at every level from the tiny hamlet up to the state level is as corrupt as it comes. Louisiana on a bad day might beat out West Virginia but only just and then not often. Everything here requires lining pockets and payola in the backroom to get things done. Some of that is because as a culture, West Virginians are comparatively uneducated and socially simple. I hate that it is true but the people that make up a large portion of this state's population are as dumb as a box of rocks and proud of it. When you have the masses exhibiting that sort of intellect and wisdom all of the politicians can be Mr. Haney from Green Acres.

Many crooks run for office but as an electorate we always seem to showcase our astute sense of villainous awareness by electing only the most crooked. Yeah West Virginians!
you aren't afraid to paint with a broad brush are you?

Not every construction project delay is related to corruption at the political level.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Martinsburg, West Virginia
1,084 posts, read 1,761,803 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
West Virginia government at every level from the tiny hamlet up to the state level is as corrupt as it comes. Louisiana on a bad day might beat out West Virginia but only just and then not often. Everything here requires lining pockets and payola in the backroom to get things done. Some of that is because as a culture, West Virginians are comparatively uneducated and socially simple. I hate that it is true but the people that make up a large portion of this state's population are as dumb as a box of rocks and proud of it. When you have the masses exhibiting that sort of intellect and wisdom all of the politicians can be Mr. Haney from Green Acres.

Many crooks run for office but as an electorate we always seem to showcase our astute sense of villainous awareness by electing only the most crooked. Yeah West Virginians!
What's weird to me is how regional some of what you are describing is.

For example, roads. I've said this many times on here, but I lived in southern WV for 2 years before moving back to the EP for work last September. I guarantee you the same potholes I used to dodge the whole 2 years I was there are still there, untouched.

However, a pothole on my new commute here opened up Monday and was filled Wednesday. Not just filled...but the entire section of road around it was smoothed and the lines were repainted. Other road expansion and paving projects seem to get started within the month they are announced.

The roads here are great compared to the rest of WV (aside from the congestion issues due to growth). District 5, on the surface, seems like it runs by itself without state assistance compared to every other district. They seem to be so much more efficient in getting stuff done. I wonder why there's such a difference?

Last edited by mmccul; 04-11-2019 at 05:55 AM..
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Old 04-11-2019, 08:47 AM
 
700 posts, read 429,295 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmccul View Post
What's weird to me is how regional some of what you are describing is.

For example, roads. I've said this many times on here, but I lived in southern WV for 2 years before moving back to the EP for work last September. I guarantee you the same potholes I used to dodge the whole 2 years I was there are still there, untouched.

However, a pothole on my new commute here opened up Monday and was filled Wednesday. Not just filled...but the entire section of road around it was smoothed and the lines were repainted. Other road expansion and paving projects seem to get started within the month they are announced.

The roads here are great compared to the rest of WV (aside from the congestion issues due to growth). District 5, on the surface, seems like it runs by itself without state assistance compared to every other district. They seem to be so much more efficient in getting stuff done. I wonder why there's such a difference?


I think you are dead on the money with this observation.

As a resident in the Charleston metro, we see the state government up close and personal. While everyone else living around the state seldom see what we see daily, their sense of what is going on is much more limited. So, you are correct it is regional, but not regional in effect, regional in awareness.


The corruption of which I speak, is explain through a cult of personality. Those state level representatives that have mastered the art of deception do well for their districts and you see the disparity of which you note. That is not a good thing. That is the heart of corruption.
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Old 04-11-2019, 08:52 AM
 
700 posts, read 429,295 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkdashocker View Post
you aren't afraid to paint with a broad brush are you?

Not every construction project delay is related to corruption at the political level.


Intellgent posters, which I believe everyone here is, understands no one paints with a universal brush. It is implied that you dislike my conclusions so therefore you attack my characterization. I understand that reaction, it is normal, but it does not mean that I am wrong either. It does not mean I am right. What it means is that you are upset because domewhere within your thoughts, you know I am right, or you fear that I am more right than you want me to be.


Nothing is always. Odd phrase, but you uderstand what it means.


Your reply is also telling. You do not deny there is corruption in delays of construction, you impy it is just not all political. I agree.
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