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Old 09-30-2017, 03:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
You are correct to point out the diverse dynamic of the project and you cover some of the core conditions, however there is one important element you left out: Regional Destination.


This shopping center will be a nexus of I-64 (which also connects to nearby I-77 and I-79; a rarity in the interstate system) as well as the south side expressway (MacCorkle Ave) and the new effective northern terminus for Corridor G. People driving up from Boone and Logan counties that work or have commercial business will continue to use the terminus downtown, but those shopping will stop first at the 5 shopping centers on Corridor G and then make the next stop in South Charleston/Spring Hill.


This has been going on for decades. Long before 4 lane highways families from the coal fields drove to Charleston on Saturday to do all of their retailing, just as those from Clay and Roane counties to the north did, those in Putnam to the west and Fayette and Raleigh counties to the east and south east.


Beckley has grown into a shopping hub and Putnam county has officially been placed in Huntington's although I have my doubts that that is effectively warranted. Of those I know living in Putnam only those down near Milton actually go to Ona, the rest drive east.


But, an Outlet Mall will draw for 100 miles and is not population dependent. You seldom see them in a highly populated area in fact.


The type of shopping center you are alluding too is called a Live Well Center. It has a section set aside for residential, usually condos, rental apartments and town homes. I do not think this location would be good for that. But the aging housing on Old MacCorkle would be an ideal location as there is a long strip there that borders the river along what is now called Riverside Drive. I could see a new Outlet Center rehabilitating all of the property from River Walk Mall west to Davis Creek. Fast-food chains on the MacCorkle frontage and residences along the riverfront.


Still I could see an extended stay hotel or something like a Hampton Inn going in there as well as perhaps a new store like Trader Joes or even Jungle Jims.


The intent of my idea is that the center is fed by a population of those living within a 90 minute drive as well as travelers going east-west and north-south thanks to the three interstates merging in the Charleston.
I lived in the NYC (northern) suburbs for years. I personally saw 2 outlet malls in the state. The first was in Fishkill (Dutchess County). To the North of that location is Poughkeepsie. Keep in mind this was years ago, but at that time there was a worn out Mall that was half empty but had some low end shops and eye doctors in it, and the newer Galleria Mall right next door. At the time the Galleria was thriving. For some reason, the outlet mall always struggled. There are actually tons of people living in that area, including a fairly healthy dose of college aged people at various area colleges, but I was surprised to see the Galleria holding it's own against the outlet mall.

The other outlet mall I saw in NYS was near Buffalo. That mall did much better, but it drew much of it's customer base from Ontario. Amazingly, as high as the taxes were in New York, they were a lot higher in Ontario so people flocked across the border to avoid paying the oppressive Ontario taxes. That outlet mall was always busy.

Looking at what you're mentioning regarding an outlet mall in that area, I'd think you're pretty much on target for areas to the East and somewhat to the North (although I don't see folks from Parkersburg going that far for shopping). They might well draw from Beckley too from time to time. The real issue would be to the West. The Barboursville Mall seems pretty strongly entrenched, and they're trying to grow retail in that area too. Also, don't forget the effects of mail order in a situation like this. Nearly all of the companies who put outlets in place also have online order functions in place and inexpensive and rapid delivery options. Investors would surely have to consider such factors. You could well be right though. That might be the way they should go. Perhaps some formal market analysis should be used to gauge the possibilities?
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
I lived in the NYC (northern) suburbs for years. I personally saw 2 outlet malls in the state. The first was in Fishkill (Dutchess County). To the North of that location is Poughkeepsie. Keep in mind this was years ago, but at that time there was a worn out Mall that was half empty but had some low end shops and eye doctors in it, and the newer Galleria Mall right next door. At the time the Galleria was thriving. For some reason, the outlet mall always struggled. There are actually tons of people living in that area, including a fairly healthy dose of college aged people at various area colleges, but I was surprised to see the Galleria holding it's own against the outlet mall.

The other outlet mall I saw in NYS was near Buffalo. That mall did much better, but it drew much of it's customer base from Ontario. Amazingly, as high as the taxes were in New York, they were a lot higher in Ontario so people flocked across the border to avoid paying the oppressive Ontario taxes. That outlet mall was always busy.

Looking at what you're mentioning regarding an outlet mall in that area, I'd think you're pretty much on target for areas to the East and somewhat to the North (although I don't see folks from Parkersburg going that far for shopping). They might well draw from Beckley too from time to time. The real issue would be to the West. The Barboursville Mall seems pretty strongly entrenched, and they're trying to grow retail in that area too. Also, don't forget the effects of mail order in a situation like this. Nearly all of the companies who put outlets in place also have online order functions in place and inexpensive and rapid delivery options. Investors would surely have to consider such factors. You could well be right though. That might be the way they should go. Perhaps some formal market analysis should be used to gauge the possibilities?


It is interesting how these things are regionalized. You being from a huge place like NYC and a lot of my experience being from the Mid-West. In Cincinnati, there were two Outlet Malls that I was familiar with, there may have been others nearer to Cleveland. One was between Cincinnati and Columbus and the other, not that far away was between Cincinnati and Dayton. They were maybe 45 minutes part but seemed to serve different communities. Both were successful, but the one between Cincinnati and Columbus was the first one and in the end the better one. Both were about an hour north of Cincinnati's northern neighbor hoods and 90 minutes from downtown. Still people came from northern Kentucky to shop there, 2 to 2.5 hours driving time. people came from Columbus, the same sort of time, 90 minutes to 2.5 hours depending where in Columbus they started from.


I don't think one at this location would vary too much from that. Central and western West Virginia has a Mid-Western feel in shopping. I also agree it would pull from the entire southern areas of the state all the way to the Kentucky line and at least as far south as Beckley to the southeast.


I am not sure how far north it would pull, but I know people that live in Webster County (Birch River) and near Sutton that work daily in Charleston, but probably no further than that as that is about 90 minutes or 2 hours. If you check out the population of that 90-120 minute driving radius, you are looking at about 1.2 million people.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:04 PM
 
Location: elkins wv
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you under estimate the poor shopping north of Charleston. people in Elkins and Buckhannon do their small shopping in Clarksburg but we have to go to Charleston,Pittsburgh, Harrisonburg Va to go shopping. I go to Morgantown a lot because of the restaurant choices and hopefully if they ever get Westview Shopping center done and there's anything good we wouldn't have to drive as far. I use to like Charleston town center mall but it needs another major store. They made a big mistake not bringing in Dillards when they had the chance. Huntington has the best mall but that is a long distance for a mall for us. Pittsburgh is closer for us. The Clarksburg Bridgeport area has the basics. Tanger outlets in Washington pa is only a couple hours as is Hagerstown outlets in Md. I don't know what they were trying to do in Flatwoods with like 10 outlets but if they could have attracted 20-40 more they could get some shoppers. Flatwoods is basically owned by one man but it is centrally located although it is mostly a pit stop area on 79. Grove city outlets is fairly popular here also. People are willing to travel Grove city is a little more than 3 hours but in this part of the state you have few options other than Walmart.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D T WV MOUNTAINS View Post
you under estimate the poor shopping north of Charleston. people in Elkins and Buckhannon do their small shopping in Clarksburg but we have to go to Charleston,Pittsburgh, Harrisonburg Va to go shopping. I go to Morgantown a lot because of the restaurant choices and hopefully if they ever get Westview Shopping center done and there's anything good we wouldn't have to drive as far. I use to like Charleston town center mall but it needs another major store. They made a big mistake not bringing in Dillards when they had the chance. Huntington has the best mall but that is a long distance for a mall for us. Pittsburgh is closer for us. The Clarksburg Bridgeport area has the basics. Tanger outlets in Washington pa is only a couple hours as is Hagerstown outlets in Md. I don't know what they were trying to do in Flatwoods with like 10 outlets but if they could have attracted 20-40 more they could get some shoppers. Flatwoods is basically owned by one man but it is centrally located although it is mostly a pit stop area on 79. Grove city outlets is fairly popular here also. People are willing to travel Grove city is a little more than 3 hours but in this part of the state you have few options other than Walmart.
Been past Tanger Outlets a hundred times, and never stopped there. I can see how many would like that sort of thing though. People go different places for different reasons. I believe that Clarksburg lost one of their anchor stores too last year. I'm just concerned about the future of retail in general, especially in areas with static, declining, or aging population demographics. We're not really knows as a shopping destination in Morgantown (too close to Pittsburgh for that), or a distribution center for that matter (in spite of the new FedEx facility). It's actually remarkable to see that growing here in spite of national trends ... must be because of the relatively youthful average ages of the residents?

I think the key is to have something unique to act as a "destination" attraction. If you go to National Harbor near DC, they have that huge ferris wheel. The Highlands in Wheeling has their large Cabela's. You mentioned Tanger Outlets in Little Washington. Next time I'm up that way, I'll stop off and take a closer look. I just know I don't hear folks around Morgantown or Wheeling raving about it. That might work for Charleston, but I would be concerned about the effects of something like that on the existing retail assets, including CTC.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:27 AM
 
Location: elkins wv
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anywhere is a destination when you have what we have in Elkins and Buckhannon. Tanger outlets in Washington aren't that great .I probably wouldn't go again. overpriced and I just don't like the stores and there's not many choices there when you want to eat. I just hope Westview has something unique to attract and keep interest. there is issues with many retail but those that do things right have nothing to worry about. most discount chains are fine. I'm sure the stores in Westview will be like home goods,T J Maxx,Burlington,Petsmart and stores like that. The rumors had Kroger's at the beginning and now Menards. A Trader Joe's would be nice and I doubt we will ever see a whole foods or Costco but they would attract a large amount of people. a nice Kroger attracts me because I was used to nice grocery stores when I lived in Texas. Our Kroger in Elkins was supposed to be expanded but never was and its not a nice store. entertainment needs included and I would love a Dave and Busters or Cheesecake Factory but again unlikely. we can only hope the restaurants are unique and good quality. there is definately nothing unique in this whole part of the state as far as shopping. we can only hope.i'm surprised there isn't a water park in the whole state and its a good distant to a Amusement park. for a state that promotes tourism access to many things families look for aren't in this state. the few tourist attractions in our part of the state aren't advertised well by the state. I was in Fredericksburg Virginia last week and would kill for a Wegmans. I would never leave the store. They are expensive but me and my sister were like kids in a candy store buying things to bring back. it makes the Kroger in Morgantown look bad and its the only descent grocery store in this part of the state.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:56 AM
 
9,401 posts, read 11,458,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D T WV MOUNTAINS View Post
anywhere is a destination when you have what we have in Elkins and Buckhannon. Tanger outlets in Washington aren't that great .I probably wouldn't go again. overpriced and I just don't like the stores and there's not many choices there when you want to eat. I just hope Westview has something unique to attract and keep interest. there is issues with many retail but those that do things right have nothing to worry about. most discount chains are fine. I'm sure the stores in Westview will be like home goods,T J Maxx,Burlington,Petsmart and stores like that. The rumors had Kroger's at the beginning and now Menards. A Trader Joe's would be nice and I doubt we will ever see a whole foods or Costco but they would attract a large amount of people. a nice Kroger attracts me because I was used to nice grocery stores when I lived in Texas. Our Kroger in Elkins was supposed to be expanded but never was and its not a nice store. entertainment needs included and I would love a Dave and Busters or Cheesecake Factory but again unlikely. we can only hope the restaurants are unique and good quality. there is definately nothing unique in this whole part of the state as far as shopping. we can only hope.i'm surprised there isn't a water park in the whole state and its a good distant to a Amusement park. for a state that promotes tourism access to many things families look for aren't in this state. the few tourist attractions in our part of the state aren't advertised well by the state. I was in Fredericksburg Virginia last week and would kill for a Wegmans. I would never leave the store. They are expensive but me and my sister were like kids in a candy store buying things to bring back. it makes the Kroger in Morgantown look bad and its the only descent grocery store in this part of the state.
Aside from the big Cabela's at The Highlands, I agree the entire state doesn't have a destination shopping place. I don't see it as likely that we will develop any either. The northern and eastern areas are near large population centers located outside the state, and the southern areas are remote from large population centers and have static, aging populations. None of those situations lend themselves to attracting the sorts of investments that provide destinations. There is talk of some sort of outdoor water recreation area associated with the new aquatic center being built at Mylan Park, but I doubt it is large enough to serve as a destination sort of thing. The Highlands had somebody who was going to put in an amusement park, but that fizzled. I think investors look at our state ... the incredibly corrupt and inept state government, the condition of the demographics and infrastructure, and just decide to pass. It would help a whole lot if the political swamp could be drained. That is the state's biggest albatross, and has been for the past 80+ years.
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
106 posts, read 87,170 times
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Hyatt, Hilton, Dillards, Wegmans, Crown Plaza Hotels, United Airlines, Trader Joes, Costco, PF Changs, American Airlines, Whole Foods, Banana Republic, Lord & Taylor, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, Mortons, Crate and Barrel, Southwest Airlines, Publix, Nordstrom Rack, Armani Exchange, Harris Teeter, Dave @ Busters, Cheesecake Factory, .................any of those names sound familiar? They shouldn't. WV doesn't have a single flight, hotel room or outlet of any of these leading national brands........sad really. But more to the point.......embarrassing.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:44 PM
 
Location: 304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRWMSPPGH View Post
Hyatt, Hilton, Dillards, Wegmans, Crown Plaza Hotels, United Airlines, Trader Joes, Costco, PF Changs, American Airlines, Whole Foods, Banana Republic, Lord & Taylor, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, Mortons, Crate and Barrel, Southwest Airlines, Publix, Nordstrom Rack, Armani Exchange, Harris Teeter, Dave @ Busters, Cheesecake Factory, .................any of those names sound familiar? They shouldn't. WV doesn't have a single flight, hotel room or outlet of any of these leading national brands........sad really. But more to the point.......embarrassing.
Both American and united fly into Charleston, as well as other WV airports. Just saying.

There will always be brands WV doesn't have simply because of our size and lack of large cities. However, some of the ones you mention are certainly possible. I think the best use for the former FMC is for light industry, with a small commercial zone running parallel to MacCorkle Ave. The space is too large to be devoted only to retail. We need to work on remodeling, re-purposing, and renewing older buildings and commercial areas. The CTC being exhibit A. Adding to existing developments at Southridge, Kanawha City, and Nitro Marketplace. Any new development can't take away from what we already have. With that being said, I'd like to see some retail/hotels/restaurants/etc... starting to develop along either/both 77 and 79. Mink Shoals comes to mind.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRWMSPPGH View Post
Hyatt, Hilton, Dillards, Wegmans, Crown Plaza Hotels, United Airlines, Trader Joes, Costco, PF Changs, American Airlines, Whole Foods, Banana Republic, Lord & Taylor, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, Mortons, Crate and Barrel, Southwest Airlines, Publix, Nordstrom Rack, Armani Exchange, Harris Teeter, Dave @ Busters, Cheesecake Factory, .................any of those names sound familiar? They shouldn't. WV doesn't have a single flight, hotel room or outlet of any of these leading national brands........sad really. But more to the point.......embarrassing.
Why would it be embarrassing? Every company has their own demographic requirements for whatever it is they are selling. Apparently none of our places fit their criteria. That isn't likely to change any time soon, but we seem to be doing okay using other companies that provide similar services. Let's fact it ... just how often do you go to PF Changs or Pottery Barn? If it isn't any more often than a few times per year, Pittsburgh or DC are short trips for many folks in our state.

Personally, I'd rather be in a position of needing to drive to Pittsburgh once in awhile for something than have to live there.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:38 PM
 
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New website for relocated Little Creek Village concept (now called Park Place): Parkplacesouthcharleston | Parkplacesouthcharleston
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