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When city leaders decided 15 or so years ago not to loan Dillard's the money for them to put in a store at the mall that signed the death warrant of the place. Dillard's would have been something unique to the state and the region and it would have brought shoppers in. You have to have something to attract them.
But Charleston has sadly been myopic for quite some time. Back in the late 80's a developer wanted to come and put 2000 or 3000 brand new middle class houses in. This was to be in Kanawha City where the high dollar houses have been built on the hill. Maybe 200 of those types of houses are there.
The city decided that they did not want to invest in infrastructure to make that happen.
Now think about this. A city that at the time had about 60000 people and losing more that needed a population boost. Needed desperately new housing for middle class people that were heading out to Teays Valley and the city decided not to invest in itself.
The leadership of Charleston has not been looking out for the city as a whole for way too long a time.
Back in the 80's after the CTC and Marriott that was the last big thing to happen. The people that dreamed that up did it in the 70's. At that time I think there must have been vision here to realize that Charleston was competing with out-of-state areas and needed to improve some things.
But now in the 2000's Charleston has fallen so far behind that it is losing competition with other areas within the state because of this myopic ignorance or arrogance or maybe both. Stores and restaurants are coming to places in state outside of Charleston but not to Charleston.
Hard to swallow that the population of Charleston in 1930 almost a hundred years ago was 60,000.
This isn't Detroit or Gary or Youngstown. This was a nice scenic place. In country that has grown so much since 1930. Charleston should have never decayed like this. It disgusts me.
It makes me incredibly sad for the promise of what this place once had but there is no vision here at all. They can change street names, parade names and times etc to make it look like changes are happening but that doesn't really do anything to boost the economy or grow housing or really anything. It's smoke and mirrors.
At this point, they just need to knock it down and look at a public/private partnership to redevelop the site as a modern mixed use development with housing, office, and some retail.
When city leaders decided 15 or so years ago not to loan Dillard's the money for them to put in a store at the mall that signed the death warrant of the place. Dillard's would have been something unique to the state and the region and it would have brought shoppers in. You have to have something to attract them.
But Charleston has sadly been myopic for quite some time. Back in the late 80's a developer wanted to come and put 2000 or 3000 brand new middle class houses in. This was to be in Kanawha City where the high dollar houses have been built on the hill. Maybe 200 of those types of houses are there.
The city decided that they did not want to invest in infrastructure to make that happen.
Now think about this. A city that at the time had about 60000 people and losing more that needed a population boost. Needed desperately new housing for middle class people that were heading out to Teays Valley and the city decided not to invest in itself.
The leadership of Charleston has not been looking out for the city as a whole for way too long a time.
Back in the 80's after the CTC and Marriott that was the last big thing to happen. The people that dreamed that up did it in the 70's. At that time I think there must have been vision here to realize that Charleston was competing with out-of-state areas and needed to improve some things.
But now in the 2000's Charleston has fallen so far behind that it is losing competition with other areas within the state because of this myopic ignorance or arrogance or maybe both. Stores and restaurants are coming to places in state outside of Charleston but not to Charleston.
Hard to swallow that the population of Charleston in 1930 almost a hundred years ago was 60,000.
This isn't Detroit or Gary or Youngstown. This was a nice scenic place. In country that has grown so much since 1930. Charleston should have never decayed like this. It disgusts me.
It makes me incredibly sad for the promise of what this place once had but there is no vision here at all. They can change street names, parade names and times etc to make it look like changes are happening but that doesn't really do anything to boost the economy or grow housing or really anything. It's smoke and mirrors.
I remember the whole Dillards debacle- the city should've been thankful that store was even interested in locating there. What did the city do? Cater to concerns by Kaufmanns/ Macy's (I believe) at the time that it would be competition. Well now look at it - the place has lost Montgomery Ward, Sears and Macy's and is left with just JC Penney. The Town Center even when I was growing up in the late 80s- 90s used to attract people from all over the state and rarely had vacancies. It was poor management by not on the city but Forest City who managed for a long time. And all city leaders seem to keep saying is 'malls are dying everywhere' and it simply isn't true. Sure some department stores have gone under but most well managed malls are managing to stay well occupied and converting former department store space to more mixed use and multi-purpose. They just need to bulldoze and start over. Maybe JC Penney can move back into the old Stone & Thomas store on Lee Street which has been vacant and 'being redeveloped' for a decade or more and the rest can just take spaces on Capitol Street.
Wow we grew up in town at the same time. I remember a vastly different place here I'm sure you do too. I left Nova it looks like you stayed.
Anyhow I think part of the problem is a WV mentality that if you have to spend money to make money that it's a bad thing to do. Whether it's loaning money to Dillard's to boost your mall, funding infrastructure to increase your population there is an insecurity that a lot of people have here doing that.
At one point Old Navy which amazingly Charleston does not have wanted a free year's rent to go into the old Kanawha Mall back during it's last days as a mall and the mall said no. That mall was struggling and Old Navy was willing to invest but wanted to reduce it's risk. A year's free rent to boost traffic to a struggling mall is a worthy risk.
People here don't understand that this is not some kind of boom town sitting on a gold mine and that we've got to be outside the box to make things happen. They aren't living in reality.
I look at the $100 million that went into the Civic Center and I'm not sure for what other than to put money in some pockets around here. I have to go to conventions. They are in nice places. Places that have attractions. Places where people want to be. At least at one time it was next to a nice mall where people could come eat and shop.
The Mall is a lost cause at this point. I hate to say that, but there's no hope for reviving it. Maybe a few years ago there was, but because the city and mall owners did NOTHING and let dozens of stores walk off, there's not much left to make it salvageable. Mixed use is the way to go, but the building will need some major improvements that I don't think is worth the effort. Why would anyone spend x-number of dollars re-developing a mall in downtown Charleston, when if they had any interest in developing at all they could simply build their own. If there was any hope, we would have heard about it when a couple years ago.
I never thought it would get this bad, but its shameful.
The Mall is a lost cause at this point. I hate to say that, but there's no hope for reviving it. Maybe a few years ago there was, but because the city and mall owners did NOTHING and let dozens of stores walk off, there's not much left to make it salvageable. Mixed use is the way to go, but the building will need some major improvements that I don't think is worth the effort. Why would anyone spend x-number of dollars re-developing a mall in downtown Charleston, when if they had any interest in developing at all they could simply build their own. If there was any hope, we would have heard about it when a couple years ago.
I never thought it would get this bad, but its shameful.
Agreed. The demise of the property has been painful to watch.
As mentioned in other posts, there is a lack of amenities and draws to compliment the Civic Center and their Convention Center. My pie in the sky thinking regarding that block would be to redevelop it with the mixed use approach you mentioned in your post, one that also incorporates the former Sears Auto Care property and the Municipal Auditorium. The retail component would obviously be smaller than it is now, but I would look for as many social and recreational draws as possible. Maybe look into having a smaller performance space for comedy and concerts. A space that would hold no more than say 2-3K for a concert and replace the Municipal Auditorium as a modern smaller performance space. As discussed on other threads, a space for indoor/outdoor recreation options. A climbing wall, obstacle course (similar to the American Ninja Warrior TV Show), indoor/outdoor bike riding, perhaps even something similar to a Top Golf type space, but smaller in scale.
The Mall is a lost cause at this point. I hate to say that, but there's no hope for reviving it. Maybe a few years ago there was, but because the city and mall owners did NOTHING and let dozens of stores walk off, there's not much left to make it salvageable. Mixed use is the way to go, but the building will need some major improvements that I don't think is worth the effort. Why would anyone spend x-number of dollars re-developing a mall in downtown Charleston, when if they had any interest in developing at all they could simply build their own. If there was any hope, we would have heard about it when a couple years ago.
I never thought it would get this bad, but its shameful.
You're right Chris- sadly I think it will eventually go the same way as Columbus City Center. That was a huge mall in downtown Columbus that fell victim to higher crime, people avoiding due to parking charges, an anchor store that went out of business and finally huge competition from newer suburban malls/ lifestyle centers like Easton and Polaris. It's been bulldozed and is now being replaced with a ton of condos and some office space. Granted Columbus is a growing metropolis and there is always demand for new housing but it would at least be worth a try in Charleston on a much smaller scale.
It is shameful. I am reminiscing (as John seems to be as well) of a thriving mall during my kid/ teenage years when the waterfalls were still there and we would throw pennies in, nearly full occupancy with a good mix of stores, a food court that was fully occupied and by actual places to eat not half of some pointless state government office, a huge arcade that we always hung out in while mom shopped, fun places to go like Bennigans which used to be packed for happy hours. Good times. At least Tidewater is still there- for now!
You are correct- it is shameful. Like I said malls aren't dying everywhere. I have siblings in Columbus and their big centers are doing just fine. Same with ours here in the DC area. One thing closes - they either replace it with something else or convert to additional mixed use with more retail, restaurants, housing and office. It comes down to management. And both prior mall managers and the City of Charleston failed on this one.
Wow we grew up in town at the same time. I remember a vastly different place here I'm sure you do too. I left Nova it looks like you stayed.
Anyhow I think part of the problem is a WV mentality that if you have to spend money to make money that it's a bad thing to do. Whether it's loaning money to Dillard's to boost your mall, funding infrastructure to increase your population there is an insecurity that a lot of people have here doing that.
At one point Old Navy which amazingly Charleston does not have wanted a free year's rent to go into the old Kanawha Mall back during it's last days as a mall and the mall said no. That mall was struggling and Old Navy was willing to invest but wanted to reduce it's risk. A year's free rent to boost traffic to a struggling mall is a worthy risk.
People here don't understand that this is not some kind of boom town sitting on a gold mine and that we've got to be outside the box to make things happen. They aren't living in reality.
I look at the $100 million that went into the Civic Center and I'm not sure for what other than to put money in some pockets around here. I have to go to conventions. They are in nice places. Places that have attractions. Places where people want to be. At least at one time it was next to a nice mall where people could come eat and shop.
Agreed John on all fronts but you really said it best with the flawed boomtown mentality - The days of people coming in to work at Carbide, FMC, etc and paying top dollar for homes in Kanawha City or South Hills (Lucado, Parkwood Rd, etc) and elsewhere have been over since the mid-late 80s. And they aren't coming back! Whatever happened to that 'Tech Center' they were going to put on the hill in South Charleston? I assume that went nowhere.
Agreed John on all fronts but you really said it best with the flawed boomtown mentality - The days of people coming in to work at Carbide, FMC, etc and paying top dollar for homes in Kanawha City or South Hills (Lucado, Parkwood Rd, etc) and elsewhere have been over since the mid-late 80s. And they aren't coming back! Whatever happened to that 'Tech Center' they were going to put on the hill in South Charleston? I assume that went nowhere.
I assume you are referring to the former Union Carbide Dow/Tech park? It is currently under the control of the state and is referred to as the WV Regional Technology Park. https://wvtechpark.com/ Currently Bridge Valle CTC is located there, along with a few other business like N3 which moved into the park a few years ago. It has never taken off as any sort of economic engine, but it is utilized by several outfits. I believe it has potential, but that's only because it is in South Charleston which has a city government that actually gives a darn! I believe that the TIF District that is being set up for the new Park Place development in SC will be used to make improvements to the WVRTP, including a new school complex (not economic per say, but nice).
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