Gas Fireplace Question -- Cold Air!!! (how much, houses, transfer)

[chapsme]

For those with construction knowledge... I have a annoying issue.

In our 2 story family room, we have a standard gas fireplace. The house was built in late 1999, it is a Heat and Glo...

When the temperature gets cold outside, a noticeable amount of cold air is coming in... from all around the fireplace, but mostly the bottom....almost like an open window. I placed a digital thermometer on the floor right in front of the fireplace and it registered 54 degrees when the thermostat for our gas furnace was set at 68. Our thermostat is approximately 15 feet from the fireplace.

There isn't a flue or damper with this unit, which I thought was typical with most gas fireplaces these days. Our pilot light is turned off since we never use the unit. I have insulation packed in where the gas line enters the fireplace... a common source of air leakage. I also have rags packed under the entire bottom cavity where the pilot and other parts would be to try blocking cold air there.

I think the issue is how they installed the fireplace or the fact that the venting pipe goes through what amounts to an uninsulated closet that houses the vent pipe. (i.e. if you look at the vent from the outside of the house, it looks like some stuck a closet on the side of the house, with the vent pipe sticking out of it... not an uncommon design from what I have seen.) So, I have an uninsulated closet stuck to the side of the house which backs up to the metal housing of the fireplace... so the fireplace conducts and lets in the cold air.

What can I do about this... and how in the world would this be up to code?

Thanks in advance

[Whatsthenews]

Originally Posted by chapsme

For those with construction knowledge... I have a annoying issue.

In our 2 story family room, we have a standard gas fireplace. The house was built in late 1999, it is a Heat and Glo...

When the temperature gets cold outside, a noticeable amount of cold air is coming in... from all around the fireplace, but mostly the bottom....almost like an open window. I placed a digital thermometer on the floor right in front of the fireplace and it registered 54 degrees when the thermostat for our gas furnace was set at 68. Our thermostat is approximately 15 feet from the fireplace.

There isn't a flue or damper with this unit, which I thought was typical with most gas fireplaces these days. Our pilot light is turned off since we never use the unit. I have insulation packed in where the gas line enters the fireplace... a common source of air leakage. I also have rags packed under the entire bottom cavity where the pilot and other parts would be to try blocking cold air there.

I think the issue is how they installed the fireplace or the fact that the venting pipe goes through what amounts to an uninsulated closet that houses the vent pipe. (i.e. if you look at the vent from the outside of the house, it looks like some stuck a closet on the side of the house, with the vent pipe sticking out of it... not an uncommon design from what I have seen.) So, I have an uninsulated closet stuck to the side of the house which backs up to the metal housing of the fireplace... so the fireplace conducts and lets in the cold air.

What can I do about this... and how in the world would this be up to code?

Thanks in advance

I thought you had to have a flue with gas fire places?

Seems you aren't alone though

http://www.google.com/search?q=gas+f...rlz=1I7GFRE_en

[chapsme]

Originally Posted by Whatsthenews

I thought you had to have a flue with gas fire places?

I see what you mean... it is a direct vent, so I guess that is the flue in a sense.

[coastalgirl]

This happened in my neighborhood as well with the homes built by KB. The fireplace should have been sealed, but some cheap builders skip out and just leave it like that, so you have the problem of cold air forcing its way in. I know of several people who had their fireplaces sealed up from the outside and do not use them anymore. They tried stuffing the hole, adding insulation, etc and nothing worked until they had a professional come out and seal up the fireplace.

Ours is not vented outside, and to my knowledge we have no flue, so I don't believe you have to have one with a gas fireplace. We use ours to heat up the house on cold nights; I've never understood the trend for outdoor vented fireplaces. What a waste of resources just for decoration!

[Redd Jedd]

Originally Posted by coastalgirl

This happened in my neighborhood as well with the homes built by KB. The fireplace should have been sealed, but some cheap builders skip out and just leave it like that, so you have the problem of cold air forcing its way in. I know of several people who had their fireplaces sealed up from the outside and do not use them anymore. They tried stuffing the hole, adding insulation, etc and nothing worked until they had a professional come out and seal up the fireplace.

Ours is not vented outside, and to my knowledge we have no flue, so I don't believe you have to have one with a gas fireplace. We use ours to heat up the house on cold nights; I've never understood the trend for outdoor vented fireplaces. What a waste of resources just for decoration!

I think what you are referring to w/KB may be the issue as noted here:

Heatilator - Customer Care - Common Questions

Why am I feeling a cold draft from my fireplace?
There are several possible causes of feeling cold air from a gas fireplace. 1) Check around the area where the gas line enters your home. That is the primary cause of cold air infiltration. You can stuff fiberglass or foil tape insulation in the hole to prevent the cold air from coming in there. 2) Check to make sure that your glass is clamped on tight by all clamps or screws. You would need to remove the front on the fireplace and look top & bottom, at all corners of the fireplace. (Make sure you hold the glass in with one hand while examining and checking the clamps with the other.) 3) If the fireplace is mounted on cement versus plywood, that can also transfer cold into your home. 4) If the chase area or "doghouse" is not insulated adequately, that is another possibility. Please check out the insulation of the chase with your builder or installer.

All firepalces have to be able to vent the burned gases to the outside via a chimney/Flue/direct vent.

This thread also had some good info:

Help with drafty gas fireplace (direct-vent)

[nuke_road_warrior]

Originally Posted by chapsme

For those with construction knowledge... I have a annoying issue.

I also have rags packed under the entire bottom cavity where the pilot and other parts would be to try blocking cold air there.

Please! Please! Please! DON'T EVEN THINK of using your fireplace with the rags packed in. It's too easy to forget them and when the weather turns cold, or the power goes off, say "Oh yeah, we've got the fireplace we can use." This could be a major fire hazard with the rags smoldering, hidden, until it's too late to contain the fire.

I won't speculate on the cause, or quality of installation sight unseen. However it doesn't sound like it was done properly. Bite the bullet and have a professional look at the installation and give you some options.

For me at least, the peace of mind would be more than worth it.

[Relevant Renovations]

Originally Posted by chapsme

I think the issue is how they installed the fireplace or the fact that the venting pipe goes through what amounts to an uninsulated closet that houses the vent pipe. (i.e. if you look at the vent from the outside of the house, it looks like some stuck a closet on the side of the house, with the vent pipe sticking out of it... not an uncommon design from what I have seen.) So, I have an uninsulated closet stuck to the side of the house which backs up to the metal housing of the fireplace... so the fireplace conducts and lets in the cold air.

What can I do about this... and how in the world would this be up to code?

Thanks in advance

This situation with manufactured fireplaces has been one of my pet peeves for years. Unfortunately, the installation methods and the inspection criteria are determined by the manufacturer and the listing agency, such as UL or ETL. The Fire, Fuel Gas and Mechanical codes appear to be relatively silent on the issue of proper installation except for referring back to the manufacturer's instructions that were submitted to the listing agency during the listing process.

The only reference I've been able to find (that is only really an indirect reference) is the Energy Conservation Code that requires proper insulation and air infiltration prevention for the building envelope; Sections 402.1 and 402.4 respectively. If the cavity (chase/doghouse) where the fireplace is installed is improperly insulated or uninsulated, or the penetrations have not been sealed, then you should have a case to have the builder or installer correct their work, if under warranty. You can check the area behind the fireplace using a remote inspection camera with a flexible neck. There are models available as wireless units with small LCD screens for about $80 , or models that use a USB conection and your notebook screen for display at about the same price. Even if you don't learn anything about the condition of the chase, you've got one really cool tool to use elsewhere!

If the fireplace is "builder grade" you will most likely find there is no thermal break (e.g. double wall construction) between the cold air entering the firebox and the outside shell of the fireplace. In effect, this creates a rather large cold steel plate that sucks the heat out of your room. Unfortunately there appears to be no area of the current codes that address how much thermal transfer can occur when the fireplace is at rest.

In no case should measures be taken to stop up the fireplace to try to stop the inflow of cold air by using rags, plastic, insulation, etc. To do so can only invite disasterous results when someone unfamiliar with the situation uses the fireplace.

[chapsme]

Originally Posted by nuke_road_warrior

Please! Please! Please! DON'T EVEN THINK of using your fireplace with the rags packed in. It's too easy to forget them and when the weather turns cold, or the power goes off, say "Oh yeah, we've got the fireplace we can use." This could be a major fire hazard with the rags smoldering, hidden, until it's too late to contain the fire.

No worries, the pilot isn't lit and hasn't been for a long time. There is also a corroded wire that needs replacing, so I couldn't light the pilot even if I wanted to...

[chapsme]

Originally Posted by Relevant Renovations

If the fireplace is "builder grade" you will most likely find there is no thermal break (e.g. double wall construction) between the cold air entering the firebox and the outside shell of the fireplace. In effect, this creates a rather large cold steel plate that sucks the heat out of your room. Unfortunately there appears to be no area of the current codes that address how much thermal transfer can occur when the fireplace is at rest.

I am sure the dog house walls are uninsulated. I learned this during a project where I constructed two 8 ft bookcases on either side of the fireplace and had electrical and signal cable run to a spot over the fireplace to mount my flat screen TV. In order to do that I had to cut out some drywall.

Upon removing the drywall, I obviously found insulation, most of which had sheathing behind it. However, there was a small section just above the fireplace with no sheathing, where they basically made up the difference between what they roughed in and where the fireplace actually fit.

I pulled it out and looked into the doghouse.... no insulation on those walls. So basically, yes, I have a huge hunk of unsealed temperature conducting metal between my family room and the sub 20 degree outside air. This morning it was 51 degrees in front of the fireplace.... ugh.

Most people complain of a slight draft from these fireplaces... this is more like an open window... I guess I should contact a pro (DM me for any suggestions).... thanks for all the replies. I will post back if I get some new info

[JTapp]

I just realized that my glass front was not put back on the fireplace correctly which caused a major draft. There are 4 latches on the glass, 2 on top and 2 on bottom. The last time I cleaned the glass, I must have not latched the bottom two, leaving a gap between the glass and the box. This caused a major amount of air to come in from the outside (and quite often blowing out my pilot light!)