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I certainly agree that North Carolina (parts of North Carolina) has always been, in general, the best educated in the South. My comparison to Mississippi was only to point out the fallacy in the Southern = good, Northern = bad, trope this thread has engendered.
NC was different largely because its leaders refused to be as insular as Deep South states and even Virginia. The university system has been one of the best int the country for some time. However, the primary and secondary schools leave much to be desired.
The migration of businesses to the South was not a natural phenomenon. "Cheap labor" and "educated work force" are conflicting ideals and there certainly was much "importing." It came about with considerable government influence and old-fashioned Chamber of Commerce boosterism and incentives. The Charlotte Chamber spent millions in the 1960s and 1970s on ads in the Wall Street Journal and poaching missions throughout the Northeast and Midwest. While there certainly were educated people here, there were not here in the numbers to support large-scale white-collar industries. i.e., there were enough well-educated engineers and chemists to work in textiles. That's an oversimplification, certainly, and it is not intended as an insult to anyone from here. It's just history.
On the whole, Northern public schools and low-cost Catholic schools provided better educations that most of the schools available in the South, and more Northerners were able to attend college and attain middle class status (many thanks to their Dad's union job).
Oh, and I am a lifelong North Carolinian who can trace one side of my family's lineage to the original Albemarle colony in the 1600s.
Well . . . as I said . . . I know plenty of folks who fall in the "factory job" education skill set (from the 50s til the 21st C) and I know plenty whose families, like yours, have been here since before this state was a state - and they attended college and had white collar, managerial, upper income jobs - and one or more college degrees. These were my family members and neighbors. (and for the record, they didn't belong to unions unlike my father's uncles, who lived in NJ and PA and did belong to unions and who didn't make any more money than their relatives in NC.)
However, I do agree that low-cost Catholic schools provided some of the best educational opportunities for kids lucky enough to be in an area with a Catholic school (and the midwest is full of these great institutions - NOT JUST THE NE, may I add). However, as we all know, there were very few Catholics in NC so that was not an option . . . but there were other private schools and christian schools . . . and the wealthier amongst us were sent to private prep schools (typically in Virginia).
But back to the main topic . . . I am not oversimplifying the history any more (and perhaps no less) than you are, Coped.
We all know that post Civil War Reconstruction - and the subsequent Populist movement - saw a veritable rush to the South by NE speculators, who basically pumped money into the economy, establishing textile mills (Cone, for ex) and furniture factories (Century Furn, for ex). And white knights they typically were NOT . . . many businesses were already established PRIOR to the Civil War but with the insistence that Southerners be punished on every level possible, there was no money available for the original owners (who had often been taken away from their businesses and homes to fight a war - or who never returned or returned missing limbs). So the "carpetbaggers" as they were called - flocked here and either picked up defunct factories and a disenfranchised labor force or had the $$$ to establish new businesses.
So no, it is not as simple as saying businesses relocated or corporations/speculators came South b/c of cheap labor. Nor is it accurate to say most Southerners had lousy educations, didn't attend college and were only qualified for blue collar or agri jobs.
I certainly agree that North Carolina (parts of North Carolina) has always been, in general, the best educated in the South. My comparison to Mississippi was only to point out the fallacy in the Southern = good, Northern = bad, trope this thread has engendered.
NC was different largely because its leaders refused to be as insular as Deep South states and even Virginia. The university system has been one of the best int the country for some time. However, the primary and secondary schools leave much to be desired.
The migration of businesses to the South was not a natural phenomenon. "Cheap labor" and "educated work force" are conflicting ideals and there certainly was much "importing." It came about with considerable government influence and old-fashioned Chamber of Commerce boosterism and incentives. The Charlotte Chamber spent millions in the 1960s and 1970s on ads in the Wall Street Journal and poaching missions throughout the Northeast and Midwest. While there certainly were educated people here, there were not here in the numbers to support large-scale white-collar industries. i.e., there were enough well-educated engineers and chemists to work in textiles. That's an oversimplification, certainly, and it is not intended as an insult to anyone from here. It's just history.
On the whole, Northern public schools and low-cost Catholic schools provided better educations that most of the schools available in the South, and more Northerners were able to attend college and attain middle class status (many thanks to their Dad's union job).
Oh, and I am a lifelong North Carolinian who can trace one side of my family's lineage to the original Albemarle colony in the 1600s.
From my family experience I'm not sure I can relate. My grandfather retired as president of one of the local mills. His colleagues and employees were just as southern as he was from my observation.
And if what you're saying is fact, can we thank all that yankee ingenuity for driving the labor union efforts that played such an integral role in driving the textile industry into the ground around here by the late 70s and early 80s? Hmmmph.
I don't doubt the veracity of some of your observations, but you can't take 1955 Charlotte in a vacuum. Sure there were more PhDs in the northeast... they also had a significantly higher population, denser cities and more industry to cultivate that difference. They were organic occurrences (with the help of some natural amount of immigration/transplantation) in the NE, and in the context of the question I believe they would have had equally organic in the South as the population centers increased in number and opportunities.
The truth, of course, lies somewhere in between. But I don't believe that the yankees played any more than an ancillary role in "gentrifying" the south. After all, the largest influx of northerners has occurred long since the decline of textiles... more like chasing the financial institution $$ (which gained a foothold in Charlotte thanks to the efforts of South Carolina's very own Hugh McColl).
In the 1950s I was taught that NC was sometimes considered to be in the South & sometimes considered to be MidAtlantic. The original European settlers to the Piedmont, in general, came down the great Philadelphia Wagon Road. They left family behind in the MidAtlantic, but brought those same values with them.
Historically, on this board, the MidAtlantic transplants are least likely to be posting complaints. That says something about Charlotte today. It's comparing in the past that's a bit more difficult, but not impossible.
Yep. NC has never "felt" as Southern as other Southern states . . . including Virginia. It is more MidAtlantic, for many reasons, including the migration to the state, wh/ included not only the Scots/Irish that historians are so fond of mentioning - but also Germans and Swiss (who were very different -culturally and socially - than the Scots and the Irish).
The seat of government in this state used to be Salisbury . . . an area very attractive to Germans - and folks seem to forget the mindset and culture of the Germans as well as the influence of Moravians, Mennonites, Quakers and Reformed . . .and the craftsmanship (woodworking, for ex) style of governance and work ethic that these groups brought to the state.
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Originally Posted by anifani821
Yep. NC has never "felt" as Southern as other Southern states . . . including Virginia. It is more MidAtlantic, for many reasons, including the migration to the state, wh/ included not only the Scots/Irish that historians are so fond of mentioning - but also Germans and Swiss (who were very different -culturally and socially - than the Scots and the Irish).
The seat of government in this state used to be Salisbury . . . an area very attractive to Germans - and folks seem to forget the mindset and culture of the Germans as well as the influence of Moravians, Mennonites, Quakers and Reformed . . .and the craftsmanship (woodworking, for ex) style of governance and work ethic that these groups brought to the state.
Yes, exactly! The mix was very close to the mix in colonial Pennsylvania. Pretty much the same groups, just different proportions.
As you know, I descend from James Mendenhall, for whom Jamestown, NC was named. While researching the family, I came up with some very interesting information that says something about the Piedmont's past. I found a lot of Documents online about Tilghman Vestal, who was part of the extended Mendenhall family. During the Civil War, he was incarcerated in Richmond & later at Salisbury, for refusung to fight.There was a mention in a letter that I found that during the war one of his aunts made a trip to Philadelphia. This was 100 years after the family came to NC. This was in Guilford County, but I think that it's a safe assumption that there were people in Charlotte at that time who maintained ties, as well. Maybe someone has uncovered something that could establish ties in Charlotte to the MidAtlantic after the colonial & federal periods.
I also saw a lot of information concerning education going back to the early 1800s.
Yes, exactly! The mix was very close to the mix in colonial Pennsylvania. Pretty much the same groups, just different proportions.
As you know, I descend from James Mendenhall, for whom Jamestown, NC was named. While researching the family, I came up with some very interesting information that says something about the Piedmont's past. I found a lot of Documents online about Tilghman Vestal, who was part of the extended Mendenhall family. During the Civil War, he was incarcerated in Richmond & later at Salisbury, for refusung to fight.There was a mention in a letter that I found that during the war one of his aunts made a trip to Philadelphia. This was 100 years after the family came to NC. This was in Guilford County, but I think that it's a safe assumption that there were people in Charlotte at that time who maintained ties, as well. Maybe someone has uncovered something that could establish ties in Charlotte to the MidAtlantic after the colonial & federal periods.
I also saw a lot of information concerning education going back to the early 1800s.
Yes, there were definitely ties . . . we can start with research already well established with Hezikiah Alexander, whose home has been preserved here in Charlotte. The style of home has German influences (and is similar to structures in PA and MD). Alexander was born in Maryland and later moved to the Cumberland Valley of Pennsylvania.
Alexander traveled back and forth to Chester County, PA in the mid 18th Century (he was a merchant) - as well as to Charleston, SC - from his home in Charlotte . . . there were wagon-loads of folks going on these same routes but travel in small groups was not rare, either.
I think folks forget that the South was simply a settlement made up of folks from other regions (not just other countries as immigrants!) many of whom did quite a bit of traveling, uprooting, relocating, during several generations. Many came here (as did one of my ancestors) with excellent educations and established themselves in communities that were rapidly growing by 1750. These were often second and third generation Americans. Not everyone who ended up in NC came straight here off a ship, lol.
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Originally Posted by anifani821
Yes, there were definitely ties . . . we can start with research already well established with Hezikiah Alexander, whose home has been preserved here in Charlotte. The style of home has German influences (and is similar to structures in PA and MD). Alexander was born in Maryland and later moved to the Cumberland Valley of Pennsylvania.
Alexander traveled back and forth to Chester County, PA in the mid 18th Century (he was a merchant) - as well as to Charleston, SC - from his home in Charlotte . . . there were wagon-loads of folks going on these same routes but travel in small groups was not rare, either.
I think folks forget that the South was simply a settlement made up of folks from other regions (not just other countries as immigrants!) many of whom did quite a bit of traveling, uprooting, relocating, during several generations. Many came here (as did one of my ancestors) with excellent educations and established themselves in communities that were rapidly growing by 1750. These were often second and third generation Americans. Not everyone who ended up in NC came straight here off a ship, lol.
This is just my opinion, Ani, but I think that to really understand the non-Southern quality of present-day Charlotte & the metro in general, people need to have experienced Philadelphia & South Jersey & dig into some of the Piedmont's history, going back to the settlement of the area.
I think that the history of the Piedmont (which is seeing the most growth, in general) plays a large part in the allure, for a lot of people.
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