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Old 07-07-2011, 07:06 PM
 
1,661 posts, read 2,785,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by validmailer View Post
Hi,


Thanks.
Valid, I will refer you to this instructable. it shows exactly the type of scheme that I recommend including the patch panel that has been derided by the local "experts". It shows what is possible and what people ARE putting in homes today. While you may not wish to go to this effort and to this level yourself, this link will certainly answer all your questions on the matter. The wiring rack is simply a pre-made device that you can have installed instead of building it as this guy did.

The nice thing about it, is you can pull the wire now. Decide what to do later. No need to build out an entire system as the 'for profit' guys apparently will insist that you must do and will bully you if you don't.

I always backup what I have to say. Thankfully this guy did not listen to the self proclaimed "pros".

Structured Wiring System Design

I recommend doing further searches on this site.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:16 PM
 
23 posts, read 38,030 times
Reputation: 13
Again.....he is not looking to do it at that level. The whole point was that he was confused on what the builder was telling him. We experts as you say are not trying to mislead anyone. What we are saying is obviously the OP didnt understand what the builder was telling him and yes, I encourage all my clients to research different things but when it comes right down to it.....there are reasons why a builder asks a professional to do the pre-wire and not the home owner. I cannot say it enough times....... yes...if the OP FEELS they can do it...fine do it....my point was simple.......the OP didnt know so my recommendation would be let the builder do what he needs to do after you let him know what you want. I do not see how ny recommendation is making me money off of this.....so your "for profit" comment has no relevence.



Now do you really have to have the last word on every forum or can you just leave it where it is?
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:34 PM
 
8,402 posts, read 20,276,166 times
Reputation: 6774
Quote:
Originally Posted by yantosh22 View Post
as the 'for profit' guys apparently will insist that you must do and will bully you if you don't.
You're the one promoting a much more expensive rack instead of an inexpensive can. The only bullying I see is you trying to shove a rack down OP's throat, whether or not it provides any advantage over a can.

I guess you work for free? Profit isn't a bad word, but even so I don't see anyone here selling anything.


More lies and failed misdirection.
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Concord, NC
1,210 posts, read 1,934,910 times
Reputation: 803
Will the builder only let the OP use the builders contractor to do the wiring during the build process? If so, talk to the builders guy, let him know what you want now and possibly what you might do in the future. Get a price. Then talk to a couple of outside guys to see how much it would cost to do the same thing after the house is built. Then pick who you want to use.

PS: If you still have time, you might want to go to a forum that is dedicated to this subject. You'll get more responses from people who know about this subject than on this board.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:20 PM
 
23 posts, read 38,030 times
Reputation: 13
The OP has the option to have any business he wants do the wiring, as long as they are bonded, insured and actually have the training to do the job right the first time. What really gets me is that certain builders don't like to use other contractors only because they are friends with the owner of that business, most of the time, just my opinion. My suggestion for the OP is to not the builder chose for him. What builders tend to forget is that you are paying them, not the other way around.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:48 PM
 
8,402 posts, read 20,276,166 times
Reputation: 6774
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanutsdad View Post
The OP has the option to have any business he wants do the wiring, as long as they are bonded, insured and actually have the training to do the job right the first time. What really gets me is that certain builders don't like to use other contractors only because they are friends with the owner of that business, most of the time, just my opinion. My suggestion for the OP is to not the builder chose for him. What builders tend to forget is that you are paying them, not the other way around.
Several reasons builders often don't allow outside contractors:

1. They can't make any money on that part of the build if the soon-to-be-homeowner deals directly with that outside contractor.

2. In this case and many others, the builder has very little hassle when using his own subcontractors. All the paperwork, insurance, bonding, etc, has been documented already. With an outside contractor this all has to be done, just for this one home.

3. Liability. "Joe Blow Two Men and a Spool of Wire custom wiring guys Inc" goes onto OPs lot, gets hurt or damages something, and then there's a big furball between the builder, OP, and whomever else may be involved.

4. The builder doesn't want to learn how to do business with an outside sub. He makes a call to his contractor, says "do package 4 for lot 349 by the 15th of July" and that's it. With an outside sub the builder has to manage every step individually, do follow up inspections, etc. The builder isn't interested in adding problems to his job. More hassle.

5. Warranty may be an issue. The house is done, something the outside contractor was involved in doesn't work, and everyone points their finger at everyone else. Not letting outside subs in means only one entity is ultimately responsible for everything in the home: the builder.

There are probably other reasons I'm not remembering right now, but they don't matter relative to those above.

It was explained to me years ago by a builder. For most anything less than a full custom build, the homeowner has little to say about who is used, simply because it's not their home yet. And it would be a gigantic problem for a builder, especially a tract builder, to manage multiple different outside subs for each home.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:36 AM
 
Location: Durham, NC
93 posts, read 117,686 times
Reputation: 96
I can't believe I actually just read through this entire thread of arguing but I am actually kind of happy I did. Please believe what vmaxnc and peanutsdad are saying -- they are right. (Please note I am just an amateur but do stay read up on this stuff).

Three things that I would add:

1. Go for Cat6 ethernet cabling over Cat5e. Cat6 is almost the same price as Cat5e and it's future proofed. I know it might not be the standard now, but this is something that you won't want to have to fix in the future. You can't easily retrofit cabling whereas you could retrofit a rack in there easily if you actually needed it 20 years in the future...

2. Make sure you get RG6 (maybe even multiple runs) to every TV jack. I don't know what ATT does for new U-Verse installs, but you will definitely want it for any Time Warner Cable install. Currently, most Whole Home DVR boxes transmit their data via MoCA to the other boxes and MoCA runs over coax cable. I don't know what ATT does for new installs, but they routinely run IP over coax via MoCA for U-Verse installs on homes that already have coax but no ethernet drops. I wouldn't suspect this to be different for installs on new homes either; I know Verizon FiOS installs only use MoCA unless you beg the installer and the company to do it over ethernet drops.

3. Do not let the installer use any type of ethernet cabling (Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6) for speaker setups. This is probably even more important than the previous two recommendations even though I am elaborating less on it.

So in short, RG6 for now, Cat6 for the future, and GOOD speaker wire.

And as I said, I'm an amateur, but I do pay attention to what is going on in this field. You have to do what is best for your home but also what is best for the person who owns your home in the future. Say you have to sell in three years because you have a new job, the next owner is probably going to consider only having ethernet drops at the TVs an issue (regardless of what you would convince ATT to do as a U-Verse install if you were to choose U-Verse) whereas having both RG6 and Cat6 will not be a negative. Twenty years in the future, only having Cat5e (which can at best run 1000BaseT or Gigabit ethernet) might be a big negative when all his devices connect via ethernet and he needs 10GBase-T or 10 Gigabit ethernet (which can run over Cat6 cabling).

Hope this helps instead of muddying the picture.

Last edited by greg5green; 07-12-2011 at 03:39 AM.. Reason: called 10 GB Ethernet the wrong name.
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:50 PM
 
37 posts, read 108,723 times
Reputation: 25
Thanks again to all of you for chipping in your thoughts and it turned out to be an argument in the end :-) I logged in today and surprising to see so many posts and would definitely take very long time to digest the content...at least for me.

BTW, I talked to builder and there's no negotiation room and I just ended up nodding my head. Here are few points,

1) He said I would get only one run (cat5e) per point (either voice or data) and if its TV/cable then RG6 so I opted for 5 Data points and 3 TV points thinking that I would convert RJ45 port into Phone (RJ-11), but not sure how? and how can I easily convert Data port (RJ-45) to Voice port (RJ-11) back and forth.

2) And for speakers, he's not going to use cat5 but uses speaker wire for home theater speaker system

3) And regarding outlet, there'll be a duplex outlet in canister and nothing beyond that (like quad electrical outlet or dedicated circuit)

4) It is going to be cat5e and not cat6

Thanks for your thoughts and detailed explanation.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:40 PM
 
8,402 posts, read 20,276,166 times
Reputation: 6774
Quote:
Originally Posted by validmailer View Post
Thanks again to all of you for chipping in your thoughts and it turned out to be an argument in the end :-) I logged in today and surprising to see so many posts and would definitely take very long time to digest the content...at least for me.

BTW, I talked to builder and there's no negotiation room and I just ended up nodding my head. Here are few points,

1) He said I would get only one run (cat5e) per point (either voice or data) and if its TV/cable then RG6 so I opted for 5 Data points and 3 TV points thinking that I would convert RJ45 port into Phone (RJ-11), but not sure how? and how can I easily convert Data port (RJ-45) to Voice port (RJ-11) back and forth. It's not likely that you'd actually swap the use of those jacks on a frequent basis. You may want to figure out what you want those jacks to be so the wiring guy can handle it for you.

2) And for speakers, he's not going to use cat5 but uses speaker wire for home theater speaker system. Good.

3) And regarding outlet, there'll be a duplex outlet in canister and nothing beyond that (like quad electrical outlet or dedicated circuit) Dedicated would have been preferred, but given how basic the rest of this is, it wasn't likely. Single duplex is the most that will fit in a can.

4) It is going to be cat5e and not cat6. Cat6 would have been better, but for the foreseeable future Cat5e will be more than sufficient. Don't sweat it. You will probably never miss out on it.

Thanks for your thoughts and detailed explanation.
That's unfortunate that you weren't allowed any room for changes. Sorry to hear that. This really is a pathetic excuse for anything called "structured wiring" but that has nothing to do with you. Did you happen to ask the builder what you would get if you opted out of structured wiring?

Last edited by vmaxnc; 07-12-2011 at 08:53 PM..
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Concord, NC
1,210 posts, read 1,934,910 times
Reputation: 803
When I built, and it came to doing the data wiring, we could only deal with the company doing the security wiring in the house. We were able to sit down with the security company salesman and decide what we wanted and where we wanted it. They charged for anything over what the builder had already built into the price of the house.

The difference between Voice (RJ-11 connector) and Data (RJ45 connector) is the number of pairs used. Voice uses 2-pairs while data uses 4 pairs. Cat-5E or Cat-6 comes with 4 pairs. You can freely convert between the Voice and Data as long as you have the 4 pairs. Changing the tips on a cable is simple. Any person can do that themselves. All it takes is knowing the order of the wires, a crimping tool, and the correct connector.
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