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Old 09-18-2018, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
844 posts, read 580,676 times
Reputation: 521

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
^ This.


Meep,

You mentioned about ATL would be just as populous as the city of PHL (which as stated, is the same sq. Mile as ATL) if you counted all of Fulton County (534 sq. Mile) and half of Dekalb (271 sq. Miles$


All of Fulton and “1/2” of Dekalb would still be less populous than PHL’s 134 sq. Mile city limit vs. a 669 Sq. Limit for Atlanta (if it were all of Fulton and we just divided the #’s in 2 for Dekalb)



And the only reason I’m pointing this out is because you’re talking about boosters “inflating” numbers. City limits aren’t meant for bragging rights. That’s not why they are created or drawn. It’s all about controlling growth & $$$.

Just as Charlotte boosters can misconstrue the city population size, the detractors misconstrue it intentionally also. Claim it’s extremely low dense, etc etc



^ Literally the green area is a wholeeee lot of nothing. Extremely suburban, and rural in the entire western portion and actually a lot of it may just be undeveloped forest...

To me, the “real” Charlotte - or the actual city part of Charlotte is all of the yellow inside 485, the pink and 1/2 the purple. It’s by far the most populated area.

And it’s a good thing most of it was annexed because the city can better manage sprawl etc etc.
The parts of the Dekalb closest to the city contain more ppl, higher population density. It’s not as if the population of other suburban counties population are equally dispersed throughout them either ( Atlanta is the focal point, so on each side ppl try live in as close as possible), so you don’t need to take up half the land area to get half of dekalb Pop.

That aside, I grant your point. Atlanta would still use a lot more land than philly to get the same amount of people, but this isn’t analogous the disparity between Atlanta and Charlotte because the areas immediately surrounding Atlanta compensate for city limit size disparities, Charlotte’s doesn’t do this when compared to Atlanta. Furthermore, though these people may not reside in Atlanta city limits, they work and play there. You constantly have a few million there during active hours, then don’t forget Atlanta just recently had 51 million visitors. That averages at about additional million ppl per week, most of which I’m sure will grace downtown or buckhead with their presence.

So while Philly is obviously more densely populated than Atlanta, the area itself is peer to Atlanta population-wise. Atlanta is just more scattered throughout its suburban neighborhoods.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,791 posts, read 3,299,795 times
Reputation: 2671
Quote:
Originally Posted by meep View Post
The parts of the Dekalb closest to the city contain more ppl, higher population density. It’s not as if the population of other suburban counties population are equally dispersed throughout them either ( Atlanta is the focal point, so on each side ppl try live in as close as possible), so you don’t need to take up half the land area to get half of dekalb Pop.

That aside, I grant your point. Atlanta would still use a lot more land than philly to get the same amount of people, but this isn’t analogous the disparity between Atlanta and Charlotte because the areas immediately surrounding Atlanta compensate for city limit size disparities, Charlotte’s doesn’t do this when compared to Atlanta. Furthermore, though these people may not reside in Atlanta city limits, they work and play there. You constantly have a few million there during active hours, then don’t forget Atlanta just recently had 51 million visitors. That averages at about additional million ppl per week, most of which I’m sure will grace downtown or buckhead with their presence.

So while Philly is obviously more densely populated than Atlanta, the area itself is peer to Atlanta population-wise. Atlanta is just more scattered throughout its suburban neighborhoods.

I think I read before no one takes ATL’s visitor numbers seriously. It was even above LA by around 10% or so....

Also, you say “the parts of Dekalb closest to the city.” That is not city. That’s very suburban. If you adjusted ATL’s size to compensate being smaller than Philly, you would have to incorporate dense suburbs into Philly....


And as we all said. Everyone knows Atlanta is bigger than Charlotte. Though Fulton County and Mecklenburg County are nearly the same population and land size. I know that’s omitting Dekalb. And that doesn’t change metro ATL is yuge and covers pretty much half the entire state of GA (im exaggerating)


Sunbelt cities in general are giant suburbs. ATL (Houston & Dallas) is a fairly “small” city in an enormous metro with large suburbs. Small cities compared to 6mm+ metros.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,562 posts, read 7,670,366 times
Reputation: 4368
This topic overall was over-played so much a few years back, I've been reluctant to say much at first.

First, there has been much said on some distracting side-issues. Mostly regarding MSA and CSA boundaries, which by Census Bureau standards are done at the county-level. Of course most territories inside MSA and CSA borders aren't really urbanized (including suburban/exurban growth) and this is true for most cities. Rather it is based on the commuter patterns of just a few thousand people in a single county.

Someone took the quick, easy shot to note that a county in Alabama is in Atlanta's CSA. What is being missed is there is a large auto-plant in West Point near the state border generating many jobs. There aren't people in the county from Alabama going to Alabama, but they are going to the auto plant. This makes it a part of the LaGrange MSA, not the Atlanta MSA.

Then the Census Bureau's larger question is if Lagrange and Atlanta belong in the same CSA, which has more to do with daily commuting between the two. Because there are suburbs in between where people live and commute to both places, that makes the Census Bureau opt to consolidate them into a CSA together.

Then people keep marking arguments of city size, but that largely brings into question how and why the political borders are drawn the way they are, not so much the actual size of the cultural and economic power the city brings to attracting people both inside its borders and close-by.

The two simple things that could be discussed here, that are being missed again and again, is the urban area. The distracting arguments over the political border of the MSA and CSA covering large portions of Georgia, don't really play into the real foot print of where and how people live.

It is true that Charlotte and Atlanta are more spread out Sunbelt cities, than older Midwestern and Northeastern counterparts. Few would argue otherwise, but it's also misleading to focus on the size of the CSA and assume everyone is spread out across the whole area the same way, which is implied with the way people keep casually bringing it up...even though I know those people wouldn't actually argue that. Of course, we don't always have year to year updated research on urban areas. As of 2010 4.5m people live in Atlanta's USA with an extra 700k living outside the UA and in the MSA.

Much of the same can be said about Charlotte on a smaller level. Most people live in the UA over a much smaller area, than the distant exurban counties that are mostly rural but still has a small population commuting into Charlotte or Charlotte's suburbs.

For the intown issues that keep bringing up Dekalb County has much to do with irregular borders. A better way to research this topic would be to create a radius from the CBD and examine what all is present, of course that will take up too much time to analyze block group data.

The issue is Dekalb County is less than 2 miles from Downtown Atlanta's actual CBD. A small part of Atlanta's city limits go into Dekalb, but there are unincorporated areas that are only 3 miles from Atlanta's CBD. This is a rather foreign situation to Charlotte where the city has control of almost all land within a 7 miles radius and a good bit more going beyond that in a few directions.

There is an interesting history here for people that are curious. Georgia has the most counties of any state outside of Texas. Like most east coast states counties are smaller, but Georgia was more aggressive at creating smaller counties. A long time ago the state left more things in local control and expected any sizable town to take care of rural issues and roads closer to its borders than an another city. Increasingly as smaller towns grew in size, they were likely to split up counties and let the growing city be its own county-seat. A day's horse-ride should get any to their county-seat.

Well Dekalb County use to have most of the territory of Central Fulton County that Atlanta is positioned on today. Decatur, which is only about 5 miles from Atlanta's CBD was the county seat of the whole area and the older city in the area, not Atlanta. When the railroad was looking for a new terminus, they were looking for a site near the Eastern Continental Divide that would have future connections to the Midwest and Northeast without crossing the Appalachians. This put them wanting to build it near Decatur and the people of Decatur said no. They didn't want that attention. (Atlanta's original NIMBYs), so they created a new city around the terminus. So Atlanta was built around the terminus, not the other way around, and it grew rapidly.

Georgia then proceeded to split the area into two counties. The new fast growing city of Atlanta would get its own county. That is why there is a relatively close county border between Decatur and Atlanta today. Had Decatur not existed, taken the railroad terminus, or the Georgia wasn't as aggressive at splitting up the counties in the 1800s, then Atlanta would be in a more normal sized and shaped Dekalb County.

To add to the confusion, Fulton County was asked to combine with some very small rural counties facing financial trouble during the Great Depression. Campbell County to the South and Milton County (short-lived county) to the north. The state believed Atlanta being the largest city in the area would be the lowest impact way to service the areas. So we have Fulton County, a very large county north to south with a small skinny area where the actual city of Atlanta was founded. In fact, I live in Gwinnett County and I am actually closer to Atlanta's CBD than over half of the land area in Fulton County. So it is a unique history and an odd situation.

Now I largely agree in principal that Atlanta and Charlotte are alot alike. I take agreement with much of what Charlotte485 said. But at the same time with many of the ways arguments were brought up I kept finding myself biting my tongue. I could tell there was a heavy degree of substance missing from the arguments and likely there are things about Atlanta they don't really know or haven't experienced in quite the right way to understand. Some of it is because some of these effects are a more foreign concept in Charlotte and that will change rapidly in the future.

I think there is some truth that Charlotte is growing similar to Atlanta and is about 35-40 years behind Atlanta in the growth cycle of a booming Sunbelt City. This gives us many similar characteristics, especially both being located in the hill Piedmont. However there are some differences I will get to later, but the differences I want to spot out first are caused by where Atlanta and Charlotte is in the metro-growth cycle. Charlotte hasn't really gotten a full dose of the next level just yet, but they will.

When I was a kid in the Atlanta area, most Atlantans still commuted to the intown CBD for work, most new suburbs were still positioned 360 degrees around Downtown Atlanta with a CBD commute in mind. We had out-cropping office parks and the early stages of edge cities, but they weren't that large. They aren't in Charlotte currently either. Atlanta back then drew most their attention Downtown, much the same way Charlotte draw's attention to Uptown today. Upstart transit systems focusing on Downtown were an easy sell, as it has been in Charlotte recently. There was a good bit of excitement behind that. Then of course the largest excitement of all, we eventually got the Olympics drawing a great deal of attention intown right as headwinds were picking up.

Fast forward to today Atlanta has large edge cities that rival Downtown Atlanta in white collar employment and we have even more medium size edge cities and developing edge cities going further out of town than larger edge cities. Industrial growth is also quite a bit higher, but at the periphery of Atlanta's Urban Area, not intown. While it is easy to look at the actual residential subdivisions for similarities and say... Oh look we both have a Publix on a nondescript 5-lane road, there are some critical differences and Charlotte will face them too in the future.

Atlanta's suburbs have far more jobs and economic might then you will understand from looking at the residential bedroom communities and supporting retail alone. This changes patterns for bedroom community/emerging suburbs development and traffic patterns. Many people move to areas without a thought of being able to commute Downtown.

Only the earliest stages of this are developing in Charlotte. I give a great deal of credit to South Park being Charlotte's Buckhead and University City and Ballantyne being similar to Atlanta Perimeter Center.

In terms of the history, wealth, jobs types, etc... this holds a great deal of truth. In terms of size and influence on how the region builds itself, not quite the same yet... but it's growing that way.

However in terms of size and influence, those areas are smaller than our smaller emerging markets. They have less office space than Alpharetta, Northlake, Central Gwinnett (Gwinnett Place/Sugarloaf), and Kennesaw do in Atlanta.

152 million square feet of suburban office space and 700 million square ft of industrial space (mostly in suburbs) play a heavy influence on how the whole Atlanta region operates. The region, appropriately called, becomes much more multi-nodal. Most of America's largest metro-regions are this way on some level.

I drive down Franklin Blvd in Gastonia towards town. I can't help but to think how similar it is to Cobb Pkwy south of Marietta. So many suburban retail and bedroom community similarities to made. In many ways Franklin Blvd is similar to what Cobb Pkwy was 35 years ago. However, Cobb Pkwy leads right into Cumberland Galleria that has a similar amount of office space as Uptown Charlotte has, albeit more spread out. You have denser suburban neighborhoods popping up in nearby Smyrna and Vinings and denser condo buildings in Cumberland itself. But yes... there is also a Publix, large lot homes built in the '70s and even a Cheesecake Factory nearby.

I see large similarities with Atlanta's Midtown (in the past) and Charlotte's Southend. Both areas defined by parallel arterial roads leading out of the CBD towards the wealthier side of town. In the older days it was a key area of retail and light industrial areas growing and competing for business on the wealthier side of town. That is how both areas were originally developed.

The superior roads, easier implementation of transit, and lack of single family home NIMBY's make it a prime area to target denser redevelopment. Of course a key difference is the type of buildings in South End today can't afford to develop in Atlanta's Midtown and up in scattered peripheral areas and along the Atlanta Beltline. Atlanta's Midtown has become a full-fledged CBD in its own right with 23 million square feet of office space (more than Upton Charlotte) and highrise condo towers are more the norm.

Imagine for a second that all of Gaston County having more office space, than Uptown currently does. This is the type of levels we're talking about.

One reasons I highlight this, is to let you know its coming. The recent success of Ballantyne and University City is only the beginning of early stages. Charlotte will likely get hit just as hard, if not harder, than Atlanta. One critical difference between Atlanta and Charlotte that pre-existed these trends has to do with the Urban foot print of the city's in the pre-car era. Here is where there are some differences between the two cities worth looking at.

The amount of acres in the foot print of the Uptown CBD and Downtown Atlanta's CBD matter. This matters in terms of future development costs of more buildings entering the market.



What happens in most cities is some types of properties redevelop easier and some don't. Some are more costly to redevelop and some are cheaper. Some face more political headwinds and others don't. The single family home neighborhoods in cities take up a great deal of space, provide housing for just a few, but are notoriously slow to adjust because of political pressures and the realities of needing to by so many lots from so many owners at one time just to carry-out a larger project. The same thing happens in the suburbs, you will have the similarity of subdivisions that you note, but in Atlanta you get pocket townhome neighborhoods and condos spread out in areas you wouldn't expect them to develop in Charlotte today.


Atlanta's core, while including many single-family home neighborhoods taking up a great deal of buildable space for more urbanized uses, at least has more pre-car era streetcar suburbs, allowing more people to live in houses near the core.


Atlanta's Midtown also has/had a larger foot print, ie. more acres, than Southend in Charlotte. Atlanta's CBD has more acres than Uptown Charlotte does. This will put a great deal of pressure for development to expand outward where it's cheaper to redevelop and more acres of land are susceptible to change. This drives economic incentives for development of large edge cities and many of them. Charlotte is on the beginning end of this trend and it will greatly impact the Charlotte region decades into the future.

A few numbers of comparison from Colliers 2018 Market Reports:

Charlotte

Urban Office Market

CBD: 21.6msf
Midtown: 5msf


Urban Total: 27.1 msf

Suburban Office Market

Airport: 12msf
Cotswold: .25msf
Crownpoint: 1.6msf
I-77/NE: 3.3msf
East: 1.9msf
Northwest: .6msf
Park Road: .96msf
Southpark: 5.1msf
University: 7.4msf

Suburban Total: 42,8msf

Total Office Market: 69.9msf

Industrial Total: 219msf (8msf in Central area)


Atlanta

Urban Office Market
Downtown: 27.3msf
Midtown: 23.4msf
Buckhead: 21.7msf

Total Urban: 72.5msf

Suburban Office Market
Perimeter Center: 29.5msf
North Fulton : 28.5msf (Roswell/Alpharetta)
Northeast Atlanta : 24.1msf (starts at Gwinnett County line)
Northlake : 17.2msf (northeastern corridor Dekalb County; before Gwinnett County)
Northwest Atlanta : 36.8msf (starts at Cobb County line)
South Atlanta: 13msf (includes southeast and southwest corridors)
West Atlanta: 2.5msf

Suburban Total: 152msf

Office Market Total: 224.6msf

Industrial Total: 700.1msf (14msf in Central area)

Not going to list all industrial submarkets, but I want to highlight 2 and I have a reason for this.
Northeast I-85 corridor which is outside the urban centerL 197.5msf
South Atlanta (includes southwest and southeast corridors): 183.3msf

We all know Atlanta is a much larger, so going beyond total aggregate numbers.... What I want to highlight is how much the office suburban markets and edge cities change and grow and how that impacts how people travel, commute, and where they can buy homes. It changes a great deal how people interact with the region and perceive it and goes a great deal beyond... there is a Publix.

Even the entire industrial market of Charlotte can fit into one mostly suburban northeastern corridor of Dekalb/Gwinnett or in the southern corridors of Atlanta alone.

So while I agree with the similarities spotted out, there are many realities that seem to be missing to the substance of the conversation. The two cities are very similar, but what I would more cautiously say is Charlotte is more like a much younger Atlanta and will face many of the same economic growth-trends in the future, but there are things we experience in Atlanta that Charlotte is only at the earliest stages of feeling or understanding.

I'd also add a video clip if I could from Harry Potter Deathly Hallows when a message of warning comes to the wedding, "The Ministry of Magic has fallen. The Minister is dead. They are coming. They are coming."

I would use the same effect and voice and say "The ability of Uptown to handle most office growth for the region is ending. There isn't enough family single-home housing nearby. They are coming. They are coming."

I also want to highlight an area of opportunity for Charlotte. Growth tends to happens towards a more wealthy 'favored-quarter." For Atlanta that is our notorious northern suburbs by way of Buckhead and Perimeter Center and beyond. For Charlotte the demographics point towards South Park and Ballantyne.

You will notice Atlanta's Southern, western, and eastern markets are particularly weak.

Charlotte has UNC-Charlotte as a good catalyst site northeast of town, which has brought large office parks for Wells Fargo, TIAA, and others. I would put a great deal of attention at trying to continue to leverage that, so Charlotte doesn't grow quiet as lop-sided as Atlanta did. I would also look for opportunities to grow eastward and northwestward, which is not seeing much attention in Charlotte. You will find this hard to do. You might also be surprised in 30 years from now to see how much Rock Hill can grow and compete in terms of office space in the region, bringing tax dollars and wealth into South Carolina. They are well positioned in the right part of town that economic forces are growing towards.




(PS. sorry for the book chapter; I really wanted this to turn into something to invoke thought for those pondering what might happen in Charlotte's future)
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
844 posts, read 580,676 times
Reputation: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
I think I read before no one takes ATLís visitor numbers seriously. It was even above LA by around 10% or so....

Also, you say ďthe parts of Dekalb closest to the city.Ē That is not city. Thatís very suburban. If you adjusted ATLís size to compensate being smaller than Philly, you would have to incorporate dense suburbs into Philly....


And as we all said. Everyone knows Atlanta is bigger than Charlotte. Though Fulton County and Mecklenburg County are nearly the same population and land size. I know thatís omitting Dekalb. And that doesnít change metro ATL is yuge and covers pretty much half the entire state of GA (im exaggerating)


Sunbelt cities in general are giant suburbs. ATL (Houston & Dallas) is a fairly ďsmallĒ city in an enormous metro with large suburbs. Small cities compared to 6mm+ metros.
Dude, your ignorance is showing here.


Firstly, my point about visitors isnít one about genuine tourism, business conventions and layovers. It can be any of the aforementioned things, ppl are still likely to interact in the city itself, even if they are here because of Work.

And look up the population density for Decatur, itís not very suburban. Now, look up Brookhaven and Dunwoody. Dunwoody has 50k residents at 3.5k ppl per mile, this hardly ďvery suburbanĒ lol. Uptown Charlotte has a 1/3 the population of that with less density... by your logic, uptown is suburban because it has less population density the the immediate DeKalb County burbs.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
844 posts, read 580,676 times
Reputation: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
This topic overall was over-played so much a few years back, I've been reluctant to say much at first.

First, there has been much said on some distracting side-issues. Mostly regarding MSA and CSA boundaries, which by Census Bureau standards are done at the county-level. Of course most territories inside MSA and CSA borders aren't really urbanized (including suburban/exurban growth) and this is true for most cities. Rather it is based on the commuter patterns of just a few thousand people in a single county.

Someone took the quick, easy shot to note that a county in Alabama is in Atlanta's CSA. What is being missed is there is a large auto-plant in West Point near the state border generating many jobs. There aren't people in the county from Alabama going to Alabama, but they are going to the auto plant. This makes it a part of the LaGrange MSA, not the Atlanta MSA.

Then the Census Bureau's larger question is if Lagrange and Atlanta belong in the same CSA, which has more to do with daily commuting between the two. Because there are suburbs in between where people live and commute to both places, that makes the Census Bureau opt to consolidate them into a CSA together.

Then people keep marking arguments of city size, but that largely brings into question how and why the political borders are drawn the way they are, not so much the actual size of the cultural and economic power the city brings to attracting people both inside its borders and close-by.

The two simple things that could be discussed here, that are being missed again and again, is the urban area. The distracting arguments over the political border of the MSA and CSA covering large portions of Georgia, don't really play into the real foot print of where and how people live.

It is true that Charlotte and Atlanta are more spread out Sunbelt cities, than older Midwestern and Northeastern counterparts. Few would argue otherwise, but it's also misleading to focus on the size of the CSA and assume everyone is spread out across the whole area the same way, which is implied with the way people keep casually bringing it up...even though I know those people wouldn't actually argue that. Of course, we don't always have year to year updated research on urban areas. As of 2010 4.5m people live in Atlanta's USA with an extra 700k living outside the UA and in the MSA.

Much of the same can be said about Charlotte on a smaller level. Most people live in the UA over a much smaller area, than the distant exurban counties that are mostly rural but still has a small population commuting into Charlotte or Charlotte's suburbs.

For the intown issues that keep bringing up Dekalb County has much to do with irregular borders. A better way to research this topic would be to create a radius from the CBD and examine what all is present, of course that will take up too much time to analyze block group data.

The issue is Dekalb County is less than 2 miles from Downtown Atlanta's actual CBD. A small part of Atlanta's city limits go into Dekalb, but there are unincorporated areas that are only 3 miles from Atlanta's CBD. This is a rather foreign situation to Charlotte where the city has control of almost all land within a 7 miles radius and a good bit more going beyond that in a few directions.

There is an interesting history here for people that are curious. Georgia has the most counties of any state outside of Texas. Like most east coast states counties are smaller, but Georgia was more aggressive at creating smaller counties. A long time ago the state left more things in local control and expected any sizable town to take care of rural issues and roads closer to its borders than an another city. Increasingly as smaller towns grew in size, they were likely to split up counties and let the growing city be its own county-seat. A day's horse-ride should get any to their county-seat.

Well Dekalb County use to have most of the territory of Central Fulton County that Atlanta is positioned on today. Decatur, which is only about 5 miles from Atlanta's CBD was the county seat of the whole area and the older city in the area, not Atlanta. When the railroad was looking for a new terminus, they were looking for a site near the Eastern Continental Divide that would have future connections to the Midwest and Northeast without crossing the Appalachians. This put them wanting to build it near Decatur and the people of Decatur said no. They didn't want that attention. (Atlanta's original NIMBYs), so they created a new city around the terminus. So Atlanta was built around the terminus, not the other way around, and it grew rapidly.

Georgia then proceeded to split the area into two counties. The new fast growing city of Atlanta would get its own county. That is why there is a relatively close county border between Decatur and Atlanta today. Had Decatur not existed, taken the railroad terminus, or the Georgia wasn't as aggressive at splitting up the counties in the 1800s, then Atlanta would be in a more normal sized and shaped Dekalb County.

To add to the confusion, Fulton County was asked to combine with some very small rural counties facing financial trouble during the Great Depression. Campbell County to the South and Milton County (short-lived county) to the north. The state believed Atlanta being the largest city in the area would be the lowest impact way to service the areas. So we have Fulton County, a very large county north to south with a small skinny area where the actual city of Atlanta was founded. In fact, I live in Gwinnett County and I am actually closer to Atlanta's CBD than over half of the land area in Fulton County. So it is a unique history and an odd situation.

Now I largely agree in principal that Atlanta and Charlotte are alot alike. I take agreement with much of what Charlotte485 said. But at the same time with many of the ways arguments were brought up I kept finding myself biting my tongue. I could tell there was a heavy degree of substance missing from the arguments and likely there are things about Atlanta they don't really know or haven't experienced in quite the right way to understand. Some of it is because some of these effects are a more foreign concept in Charlotte and that will change rapidly in the future.

I think there is some truth that Charlotte is growing similar to Atlanta and is about 35-40 years behind Atlanta in the growth cycle of a booming Sunbelt City. This gives us many similar characteristics, especially both being located in the hill Piedmont. However there are some differences I will get to later, but the differences I want to spot out first are caused by where Atlanta and Charlotte is in the metro-growth cycle. Charlotte hasn't really gotten a full dose of the next level just yet, but they will.

When I was a kid in the Atlanta area, most Atlantans still commuted to the intown CBD for work, most new suburbs were still positioned 360 degrees around Downtown Atlanta with a CBD commute in mind. We had out-cropping office parks and the early stages of edge cities, but they weren't that large. They aren't in Charlotte currently either. Atlanta back then drew most their attention Downtown, much the same way Charlotte draw's attention to Uptown today. Upstart transit systems focusing on Downtown were an easy sell, as it has been in Charlotte recently. There was a good bit of excitement behind that. Then of course the largest excitement of all, we eventually got the Olympics drawing a great deal of attention intown right as headwinds were picking up.

Fast forward to today Atlanta has large edge cities that rival Downtown Atlanta in white collar employment and we have even more medium size edge cities and developing edge cities going further out of town than larger edge cities. Industrial growth is also quite a bit higher, but at the periphery of Atlanta's Urban Area, not intown. While it is easy to look at the actual residential subdivisions for similarities and say... Oh look we both have a Publix on a nondescript 5-lane road, there are some critical differences and Charlotte will face them too in the future.

Atlanta's suburbs have far more jobs and economic might then you will understand from looking at the residential bedroom communities and supporting retail alone. This changes patterns for bedroom community/emerging suburbs development and traffic patterns. Many people move to areas without a thought of being able to commute Downtown.

Only the earliest stages of this are developing in Charlotte. I give a great deal of credit to South Park being Charlotte's Buckhead and University City and Ballantyne being similar to Atlanta Perimeter Center.

In terms of the history, wealth, jobs types, etc... this holds a great deal of truth. In terms of size and influence on how the region builds itself, not quite the same yet... but it's growing that way.

However in terms of size and influence, those areas are smaller than our smaller emerging markets. They have less office space than Alpharetta, Northlake, Central Gwinnett (Gwinnett Place/Sugarloaf), and Kennesaw do in Atlanta.

152 million square feet of suburban office space and 700 million square ft of industrial space (mostly in suburbs) play a heavy influence on how the whole Atlanta region operates. The region, appropriately called, becomes much more multi-nodal. Most of America's largest metro-regions are this way on some level.

I drive down Franklin Blvd in Gastonia towards town. I can't help but to think how similar it is to Cobb Pkwy south of Marietta. So many suburban retail and bedroom community similarities to made. In many ways Franklin Blvd is similar to what Cobb Pkwy was 35 years ago. However, Cobb Pkwy leads right into Cumberland Galleria that has a similar amount of office space as Uptown Charlotte has, albeit more spread out. You have denser suburban neighborhoods popping up in nearby Smyrna and Vinings and denser condo buildings in Cumberland itself. But yes... there is also a Publix, large lot homes built in the '70s and even a Cheesecake Factory nearby.

I see large similarities with Atlanta's Midtown (in the past) and Charlotte's Southend. Both areas defined by parallel arterial roads leading out of the CBD towards the wealthier side of town. In the older days it was a key area of retail and light industrial areas growing and competing for business on the wealthier side of town. That is how both areas were originally developed.

The superior roads, easier implementation of transit, and lack of single family home NIMBY's make it a prime area to target denser redevelopment. Of course a key difference is the type of buildings in South End today can't afford to develop in Atlanta's Midtown and up in scattered peripheral areas and along the Atlanta Beltline. Atlanta's Midtown has become a full-fledged CBD in its own right with 23 million square feet of office space (more than Upton Charlotte) and highrise condo towers are more the norm.

Imagine for a second that all of Gaston County having more office space, than Uptown currently does. This is the type of levels we're talking about.

One reasons I highlight this, is to let you know its coming. The recent success of Ballantyne and University City is only the beginning of early stages. Charlotte will likely get hit just as hard, if not harder, than Atlanta. One critical difference between Atlanta and Charlotte that pre-existed these trends has to do with the Urban foot print of the city's in the pre-car era. Here is where there are some differences between the two cities worth looking at.

The amount of acres in the foot print of the Uptown CBD and Downtown Atlanta's CBD matter. This matters in terms of future development costs of more buildings entering the market.



What happens in most cities is some types of properties redevelop easier and some don't. Some are more costly to redevelop and some are cheaper. Some face more political headwinds and others don't. The single family home neighborhoods in cities take up a great deal of space, provide housing for just a few, but are notoriously slow to adjust because of political pressures and the realities of needing to by so many lots from so many owners at one time just to carry-out a larger project. The same thing happens in the suburbs, you will have the similarity of subdivisions that you note, but in Atlanta you get pocket townhome neighborhoods and condos spread out in areas you wouldn't expect them to develop in Charlotte today.


Atlanta's core, while including many single-family home neighborhoods taking up a great deal of buildable space for more urbanized uses, at least has more pre-car era streetcar suburbs, allowing more people to live in houses near the core.


Atlanta's Midtown also has/had a larger foot print, ie. more acres, than Southend in Charlotte. Atlanta's CBD has more acres than Uptown Charlotte does. This will put a great deal of pressure for development to expand outward where it's cheaper to redevelop and more acres of land are susceptible to change. This drives economic incentives for development of large edge cities and many of them. Charlotte is on the beginning end of this trend and it will greatly impact the Charlotte region decades into the future.

A few numbers of comparison from Colliers 2018 Market Reports:

Charlotte

Urban Office Market

CBD: 21.6msf
Midtown: 5msf


Urban Total: 27.1 msf

Suburban Office Market

Airport: 12msf
Cotswold: .25msf
Crownpoint: 1.6msf
I-77/NE: 3.3msf
East: 1.9msf
Northwest: .6msf
Park Road: .96msf
Southpark: 5.1msf
University: 7.4msf

Suburban Total: 42,8msf

Total Office Market: 69.9msf

Industrial Total: 219msf (8msf in Central area)


Atlanta

Urban Office Market
Downtown: 27.3msf
Midtown: 23.4msf
Buckhead: 21.7msf

Total Urban: 72.5msf

Suburban Office Market
Perimeter Center: 29.5msf
North Fulton : 28.5msf (Roswell/Alpharetta)
Northeast Atlanta : 24.1msf (starts at Gwinnett County line)
Northlake : 17.2msf (northeastern corridor Dekalb County; before Gwinnett County)
Northwest Atlanta : 36.8msf (starts at Cobb County line)
South Atlanta: 13msf (includes southeast and southwest corridors)
West Atlanta: 2.5msf

Suburban Total: 152msf

Office Market Total: 224.6msf

Industrial Total: 700.1msf (14msf in Central area)

Not going to list all industrial submarkets, but I want to highlight 2 and I have a reason for this.
Northeast I-85 corridor which is outside the urban centerL 197.5msf
South Atlanta (includes southwest and southeast corridors): 183.3msf

We all know Atlanta is a much larger, so going beyond total aggregate numbers.... What I want to highlight is how much the office suburban markets and edge cities change and grow and how that impacts how people travel, commute, and where they can buy homes. It changes a great deal how people interact with the region and perceive it and goes a great deal beyond... there is a Publix.

Even the entire industrial market of Charlotte can fit into one mostly suburban northeastern corridor of Dekalb/Gwinnett or in the southern corridors of Atlanta alone.

So while I agree with the similarities spotted out, there are many realities that seem to be missing to the substance of the conversation. The two cities are very similar, but what I would more cautiously say is Charlotte is more like a much younger Atlanta and will face many of the same economic growth-trends in the future, but there are things we experience in Atlanta that Charlotte is only at the earliest stages of feeling or understanding.

I'd also add a video clip if I could from Harry Potter Deathly Hallows when a message of warning comes to the wedding, "The Ministry of Magic has fallen. The Minister is dead. They are coming. They are coming."

I would use the same effect and voice and say "The ability of Uptown to handle most office growth for the region is ending. There isn't enough family single-home housing nearby. They are coming. They are coming."

I also want to highlight an area of opportunity for Charlotte. Growth tends to happens towards a more wealthy 'favored-quarter." For Atlanta that is our notorious northern suburbs by way of Buckhead and Perimeter Center and beyond. For Charlotte the demographics point towards South Park and Ballantyne.

You will notice Atlanta's Southern, western, and eastern markets are particularly weak.

Charlotte has UNC-Charlotte as a good catalyst site northeast of town, which has brought large office parks for Wells Fargo, TIAA, and others. I would put a great deal of attention at trying to continue to leverage that, so Charlotte doesn't grow quiet as lop-sided as Atlanta did. I would also look for opportunities to grow eastward and northwestward, which is not seeing much attention in Charlotte. You will find this hard to do. You might also be surprised in 30 years from now to see how much Rock Hill can grow and compete in terms of office space in the region, bringing tax dollars and wealth into South Carolina. They are well positioned in the right part of town that economic forces are growing towards.




(PS. sorry for the book chapter; I really wanted this to turn into something to invoke thought for those pondering what might happen in Charlotte's future)
*reading*
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,562 posts, read 7,670,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
I think I read before no one takes ATL’s visitor numbers seriously. It was even above LA by around 10% or so....
Be careful with this... Those numbers are real and go beyond proportional metro-size.

Atlanta also has one of the highest concentrations of hotel rooms in the nation. It is mainly beaten out by Las Vegas, Orlando, and Chicago.

I fully admit Atlanta isn't a place people go vacation, like Disney World or to NYC to catch a Broadway show and see Times Square and the Status of Liberty, but it actually has extremely visitor numbers for other reasons.

The convention, merchandise market, and trade show industries are particularly high, even compared to similar sized cities. Most of this is centered on Northeastern Downtown Atlanta. Atlanta is the main wholesale merchandise trade market in the South and even out convention hotels have large-scale convention halls. These things bring many people to town with a high-frequency turnover of fresh-faces.

It is the reason the Georgia Aquarium, Coca-Cola Museum, College Football Hall of Fame, and Civil and Human Rights Museum have done so well even being positioned so close and competitively with each other. There is a huge demand for after-hours entertainment and a large latent-demand for more entertainment options in general.

This is something Charlotte doesn't have, beyond metro-size differences. It is partially why the Nascar HOF struggled and didn't get enough visitors over time.

Dallas and Chicago are the two main cities that really have some of these same qualities on a large-scale.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,791 posts, read 3,299,795 times
Reputation: 2671
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
This topic overall was over-played so much a few years back, I've been reluctant to say much at first.

First, there has been much said on some distracting side-issues. Mostly regarding MSA and CSA boundaries, which by Census Bureau standards are done at the county-level. Of course most territories inside MSA and CSA borders aren't really urbanized (including suburban/exurban growth) and this is true for most cities. Rather it is based on the commuter patterns of just a few thousand people in a single county.

Someone took the quick, easy shot to note that a county in Alabama is in Atlanta's CSA. What is being missed is there is a large auto-plant in West Point near the state border generating many jobs. There aren't people in the county from Alabama going to Alabama, but they are going to the auto plant. This makes it a part of the LaGrange MSA, not the Atlanta MSA.

Then the Census Bureau's larger question is if Lagrange and Atlanta belong in the same CSA, which has more to do with daily commuting between the two. Because there are suburbs in between where people live and commute to both places, that makes the Census Bureau opt to consolidate them into a CSA together.

Then people keep marking arguments of city size, but that largely brings into question how and why the political borders are drawn the way they are, not so much the actual size of the cultural and economic power the city brings to attracting people both inside its borders and close-by.

The two simple things that could be discussed here, that are being missed again and again, is the urban area. The distracting arguments over the political border of the MSA and CSA covering large portions of Georgia, don't really play into the real foot print of where and how people live.

It is true that Charlotte and Atlanta are more spread out Sunbelt cities, than older Midwestern and Northeastern counterparts. Few would argue otherwise, but it's also misleading to focus on the size of the CSA and assume everyone is spread out across the whole area the same way, which is implied with the way people keep casually bringing it up...even though I know those people wouldn't actually argue that. Of course, we don't always have year to year updated research on urban areas. As of 2010 4.5m people live in Atlanta's USA with an extra 700k living outside the UA and in the MSA.

Much of the same can be said about Charlotte on a smaller level. Most people live in the UA over a much smaller area, than the distant exurban counties that are mostly rural but still has a small population commuting into Charlotte or Charlotte's suburbs.

For the intown issues that keep bringing up Dekalb County has much to do with irregular borders. A better way to research this topic would be to create a radius from the CBD and examine what all is present, of course that will take up too much time to analyze block group data.

The issue is Dekalb County is less than 2 miles from Downtown Atlanta's actual CBD. A small part of Atlanta's city limits go into Dekalb, but there are unincorporated areas that are only 3 miles from Atlanta's CBD. This is a rather foreign situation to Charlotte where the city has control of almost all land within a 7 miles radius and a good bit more going beyond that in a few directions.

There is an interesting history here for people that are curious. Georgia has the most counties of any state outside of Texas. Like most east coast states counties are smaller, but Georgia was more aggressive at creating smaller counties. A long time ago the state left more things in local control and expected any sizable town to take care of rural issues and roads closer to its borders than an another city. Increasingly as smaller towns grew in size, they were likely to split up counties and let the growing city be its own county-seat. A day's horse-ride should get any to their county-seat.

Well Dekalb County use to have most of the territory of Central Fulton County that Atlanta is positioned on today. Decatur, which is only about 5 miles from Atlanta's CBD was the county seat of the whole area and the older city in the area, not Atlanta. When the railroad was looking for a new terminus, they were looking for a site near the Eastern Continental Divide that would have future connections to the Midwest and Northeast without crossing the Appalachians. This put them wanting to build it near Decatur and the people of Decatur said no. They didn't want that attention. (Atlanta's original NIMBYs), so they created a new city around the terminus. So Atlanta was built around the terminus, not the other way around, and it grew rapidly.

Georgia then proceeded to split the area into two counties. The new fast growing city of Atlanta would get its own county. That is why there is a relatively close county border between Decatur and Atlanta today. Had Decatur not existed, taken the railroad terminus, or the Georgia wasn't as aggressive at splitting up the counties in the 1800s, then Atlanta would be in a more normal sized and shaped Dekalb County.

To add to the confusion, Fulton County was asked to combine with some very small rural counties facing financial trouble during the Great Depression. Campbell County to the South and Milton County (short-lived county) to the north. The state believed Atlanta being the largest city in the area would be the lowest impact way to service the areas. So we have Fulton County, a very large county north to south with a small skinny area where the actual city of Atlanta was founded. In fact, I live in Gwinnett County and I am actually closer to Atlanta's CBD than over half of the land area in Fulton County. So it is a unique history and an odd situation.

Now I largely agree in principal that Atlanta and Charlotte are alot alike. I take agreement with much of what Charlotte485 said. But at the same time with many of the ways arguments were brought up I kept finding myself biting my tongue. I could tell there was a heavy degree of substance missing from the arguments and likely there are things about Atlanta they don't really know or haven't experienced in quite the right way to understand. Some of it is because some of these effects are a more foreign concept in Charlotte and that will change rapidly in the future.

I think there is some truth that Charlotte is growing similar to Atlanta and is about 35-40 years behind Atlanta in the growth cycle of a booming Sunbelt City. This gives us many similar characteristics, especially both being located in the hill Piedmont. However there are some differences I will get to later, but the differences I want to spot out first are caused by where Atlanta and Charlotte is in the metro-growth cycle. Charlotte hasn't really gotten a full dose of the next level just yet, but they will.

When I was a kid in the Atlanta area, most Atlantans still commuted to the intown CBD for work, most new suburbs were still positioned 360 degrees around Downtown Atlanta with a CBD commute in mind. We had out-cropping office parks and the early stages of edge cities, but they weren't that large. They aren't in Charlotte currently either. Atlanta back then drew most their attention Downtown, much the same way Charlotte draw's attention to Uptown today. Upstart transit systems focusing on Downtown were an easy sell, as it has been in Charlotte recently. There was a good bit of excitement behind that. Then of course the largest excitement of all, we eventually got the Olympics drawing a great deal of attention intown right as headwinds were picking up.

Fast forward to today Atlanta has large edge cities that rival Downtown Atlanta in white collar employment and we have even more medium size edge cities and developing edge cities going further out of town than larger edge cities. Industrial growth is also quite a bit higher, but at the periphery of Atlanta's Urban Area, not intown. While it is easy to look at the actual residential subdivisions for similarities and say... Oh look we both have a Publix on a nondescript 5-lane road, there are some critical differences and Charlotte will face them too in the future.

Atlanta's suburbs have far more jobs and economic might then you will understand from looking at the residential bedroom communities and supporting retail alone. This changes patterns for bedroom community/emerging suburbs development and traffic patterns. Many people move to areas without a thought of being able to commute Downtown.

Only the earliest stages of this are developing in Charlotte. I give a great deal of credit to South Park being Charlotte's Buckhead and University City and Ballantyne being similar to Atlanta Perimeter Center.

In terms of the history, wealth, jobs types, etc... this holds a great deal of truth. In terms of size and influence on how the region builds itself, not quite the same yet... but it's growing that way.

However in terms of size and influence, those areas are smaller than our smaller emerging markets. They have less office space than Alpharetta, Northlake, Central Gwinnett (Gwinnett Place/Sugarloaf), and Kennesaw do in Atlanta.

152 million square feet of suburban office space and 700 million square ft of industrial space (mostly in suburbs) play a heavy influence on how the whole Atlanta region operates. The region, appropriately called, becomes much more multi-nodal. Most of America's largest metro-regions are this way on some level.

I drive down Franklin Blvd in Gastonia towards town. I can't help but to think how similar it is to Cobb Pkwy south of Marietta. So many suburban retail and bedroom community similarities to made. In many ways Franklin Blvd is similar to what Cobb Pkwy was 35 years ago. However, Cobb Pkwy leads right into Cumberland Galleria that has a similar amount of office space as Uptown Charlotte has, albeit more spread out. You have denser suburban neighborhoods popping up in nearby Smyrna and Vinings and denser condo buildings in Cumberland itself. But yes... there is also a Publix, large lot homes built in the '70s and even a Cheesecake Factory nearby.

I see large similarities with Atlanta's Midtown (in the past) and Charlotte's Southend. Both areas defined by parallel arterial roads leading out of the CBD towards the wealthier side of town. In the older days it was a key area of retail and light industrial areas growing and competing for business on the wealthier side of town. That is how both areas were originally developed.

The superior roads, easier implementation of transit, and lack of single family home NIMBY's make it a prime area to target denser redevelopment. Of course a key difference is the type of buildings in South End today can't afford to develop in Atlanta's Midtown and up in scattered peripheral areas and along the Atlanta Beltline. Atlanta's Midtown has become a full-fledged CBD in its own right with 23 million square feet of office space (more than Upton Charlotte) and highrise condo towers are more the norm.

Imagine for a second that all of Gaston County having more office space, than Uptown currently does. This is the type of levels we're talking about.

One reasons I highlight this, is to let you know its coming. The recent success of Ballantyne and University City is only the beginning of early stages. Charlotte will likely get hit just as hard, if not harder, than Atlanta. One critical difference between Atlanta and Charlotte that pre-existed these trends has to do with the Urban foot print of the city's in the pre-car era. Here is where there are some differences between the two cities worth looking at.

The amount of acres in the foot print of the Uptown CBD and Downtown Atlanta's CBD matter. This matters in terms of future development costs of more buildings entering the market.



What happens in most cities is some types of properties redevelop easier and some don't. Some are more costly to redevelop and some are cheaper. Some face more political headwinds and others don't. The single family home neighborhoods in cities take up a great deal of space, provide housing for just a few, but are notoriously slow to adjust because of political pressures and the realities of needing to by so many lots from so many owners at one time just to carry-out a larger project. The same thing happens in the suburbs, you will have the similarity of subdivisions that you note, but in Atlanta you get pocket townhome neighborhoods and condos spread out in areas you wouldn't expect them to develop in Charlotte today.


Atlanta's core, while including many single-family home neighborhoods taking up a great deal of buildable space for more urbanized uses, at least has more pre-car era streetcar suburbs, allowing more people to live in houses near the core.


Atlanta's Midtown also has/had a larger foot print, ie. more acres, than Southend in Charlotte. Atlanta's CBD has more acres than Uptown Charlotte does. This will put a great deal of pressure for development to expand outward where it's cheaper to redevelop and more acres of land are susceptible to change. This drives economic incentives for development of large edge cities and many of them. Charlotte is on the beginning end of this trend and it will greatly impact the Charlotte region decades into the future.

A few numbers of comparison from Colliers 2018 Market Reports:

Charlotte

Urban Office Market

CBD: 21.6msf
Midtown: 5msf


Urban Total: 27.1 msf

Suburban Office Market

Airport: 12msf
Cotswold: .25msf
Crownpoint: 1.6msf
I-77/NE: 3.3msf
East: 1.9msf
Northwest: .6msf
Park Road: .96msf
Southpark: 5.1msf
University: 7.4msf

Suburban Total: 42,8msf

Total Office Market: 69.9msf

Industrial Total: 219msf (8msf in Central area)


Atlanta

Urban Office Market
Downtown: 27.3msf
Midtown: 23.4msf
Buckhead: 21.7msf

Total Urban: 72.5msf

Suburban Office Market
Perimeter Center: 29.5msf
North Fulton : 28.5msf (Roswell/Alpharetta)
Northeast Atlanta : 24.1msf (starts at Gwinnett County line)
Northlake : 17.2msf (northeastern corridor Dekalb County; before Gwinnett County)
Northwest Atlanta : 36.8msf (starts at Cobb County line)
South Atlanta: 13msf (includes southeast and southwest corridors)
West Atlanta: 2.5msf

Suburban Total: 152msf

Office Market Total: 224.6msf

Industrial Total: 700.1msf (14msf in Central area)

Not going to list all industrial submarkets, but I want to highlight 2 and I have a reason for this.
Northeast I-85 corridor which is outside the urban centerL 197.5msf
South Atlanta (includes southwest and southeast corridors): 183.3msf

We all know Atlanta is a much larger, so going beyond total aggregate numbers.... What I want to highlight is how much the office suburban markets and edge cities change and grow and how that impacts how people travel, commute, and where they can buy homes. It changes a great deal how people interact with the region and perceive it and goes a great deal beyond... there is a Publix.

Even the entire industrial market of Charlotte can fit into one mostly suburban northeastern corridor of Dekalb/Gwinnett or in the southern corridors of Atlanta alone.

So while I agree with the similarities spotted out, there are many realities that seem to be missing to the substance of the conversation. The two cities are very similar, but what I would more cautiously say is Charlotte is more like a much younger Atlanta and will face many of the same economic growth-trends in the future, but there are things we experience in Atlanta that Charlotte is only at the earliest stages of feeling or understanding.

I'd also add a video clip if I could from Harry Potter Deathly Hallows when a message of warning comes to the wedding, "The Ministry of Magic has fallen. The Minister is dead. They are coming. They are coming."

I would use the same effect and voice and say "The ability of Uptown to handle most office growth for the region is ending. There isn't enough family single-home housing nearby. They are coming. They are coming."

I also want to highlight an area of opportunity for Charlotte. Growth tends to happens towards a more wealthy 'favored-quarter." For Atlanta that is our notorious northern suburbs by way of Buckhead and Perimeter Center and beyond. For Charlotte the demographics point towards South Park and Ballantyne.

You will notice Atlanta's Southern, western, and eastern markets are particularly weak.

Charlotte has UNC-Charlotte as a good catalyst site northeast of town, which has brought large office parks for Wells Fargo, TIAA, and others. I would put a great deal of attention at trying to continue to leverage that, so Charlotte doesn't grow quiet as lop-sided as Atlanta did. I would also look for opportunities to grow eastward and northwestward, which is not seeing much attention in Charlotte. You will find this hard to do. You might also be surprised in 30 years from now to see how much Rock Hill can grow and compete in terms of office space in the region, bringing tax dollars and wealth into South Carolina. They are well positioned in the right part of town that economic forces are growing towards.




(PS. sorry for the book chapter; I really wanted this to turn into something to invoke thought for those pondering what might happen in Charlotte's future)

What a great and well said post. Possibly the best Iíve seen on City days
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:24 PM
 
65 posts, read 26,822 times
Reputation: 34
CSA of Atlanta = 6,555,956
CSA of Philadelphia = 7,206,807
CSA of Charlotte = 2,684,121

You can talk about city limits, suburbs, counties, office parks, square ft, etc..etc...all you want. The first two are basically the same size city.

The first and third city, NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same size city. Charlotte is an over annexed parking lot compared to Atlanta.

Nuff said. End of discussion on that topic.


FURTHERMORE:

Atlanta metro growth rate 11%
Charlotte metro growth rate 13%

11% of 6,555,956 = 720,000 (Atlanta)
13% of 2,684,121 = 350,000 (Charlotte)

Numerically, the Atlanta region is adding TWICE the number of people Charlotte the region is adding. Not only is Charlotte not nearly as big as Atlanta is now, they are falling further behind in current overall numerical growth and by A LOT. The only way Charlotte will EVER be close to the size of Atlanta is if Charlotte annexes NC, lol.

FURTHER-FURTHERMORE: Raleigh-Durham is currently 2,200,000 with a current growth rate of 15%. It's FAR more likely that region will pass the Charlotte region in population before Charlotte ever gets within a country mile of Atlanta's population.

Last edited by Sebastian14A; 09-19-2018 at 09:13 PM..
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
844 posts, read 580,676 times
Reputation: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian14A View Post
CSA of Atlanta = 6,555,956
CSA of Philadelphia = 7,206,807
CSA of Charlotte = 2,684,121

You can talk about city limits, suburbs, counties, office parks, square ft, etc..etc...all you want. The first two are basically the same size city.

The first and third city, NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same size city. Charlotte is an over annexed parking lot compared to Atlanta.

Nuff said. End of discussion on that topic.


FURTHERMORE:

Atlanta metro growth rate 11%
Charlotte metro growth rate 13%

11% of 6,555,956 = 720,000 (Atlanta)
13% of 2,684,121 = 350,000 (Charlotte)

Numerically, the Atlanta region is adding TWICE the number of people Charlotte the region is adding. Not only is Charlotte not nearly as big as Atlanta is now, they are falling further behind in current overall numerical growth and by A LOT. The only way Charlotte will EVER be close to the size of Atlanta is if Charlotte annexes NC, lol.

FURTHER-FURTHERMORE: Raleigh-Durham is currently 2,200,000 with a current growth rate of 15%. It's FAR more likely that region will pass the Charlotte region in population before Charlotte ever gets within a country mile of Atlanta's population.
Iím on your side, but you are using metro and CSA interchangeably, they are not the same. Metro Atlanta has 5.8 million, Charlotte maybe 2.3 million... so you need to modify those % numbers.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,791 posts, read 3,299,795 times
Reputation: 2671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian14A View Post
CSA of Atlanta = 6,555,956
CSA of Philadelphia = 7,206,807
CSA of Charlotte = 2,684,121

You can talk about city limits, suburbs, counties, office parks, square ft, etc..etc...all you want. The first two are basically the same size city.

The first and third city, NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same size city. Charlotte is an over annexed parking lot compared to Atlanta.

Nuff said. End of discussion on that topic.


FURTHERMORE:

Atlanta metro growth rate 11%
Charlotte metro growth rate 13%

11% of 6,555,956 = 720,000 (Atlanta)
13% of 2,684,121 = 350,000 (Charlotte)

Numerically, the Atlanta region is adding TWICE the number of people Charlotte the region is adding. Not only is Charlotte not nearly as big as Atlanta is now, they are falling further behind in current overall numerical growth and by A LOT. The only way Charlotte will EVER be close to the size of Atlanta is if Charlotte annexes NC, lol.

FURTHER-FURTHERMORE: Raleigh-Durham is currently 2,200,000 with a current growth rate of 15%. It's FAR more likely that region will pass the Charlotte region in population before Charlotte ever gets within a country mile of Atlanta's population.

And Atlanta is an oversized parking lot compared to Philadelphia.


Go out to the main forums how everyone rags on ATL for not being a “real city” versus a giant suburb.


You should be convincing big boy cities like Philadelphia or Washington DC that ATL is not just a giant parking lot, not Charlotteans


CSA ATL has to be like, 5x or more the land area of CSA PHL

CSA PHL









So in other words, Charlotte’s a medium sized parking lot and Atlanta is the worlds largest parking lot


Philadelphia is much much larger than ATL. Yes, 1/2 the state of GA is similar in size to the 7 or so counties of MSA PHL.... so?

Last edited by Charlotte485; 09-20-2018 at 07:05 AM..
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