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Old 09-20-2018, 07:35 PM
 
65 posts, read 25,452 times
Reputation: 34

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Urban politics comparisons:

The 2016 Presidential election results:

In the IMMEDIATE Atlanta area: SIX counties went blue
In the IMMEDIATE Raleigh-Durham area: FOUR counties went blue
in the ENTIRE Charlotte area, Mecklenburg was the ONLY county that went blue.

Charlotte's not as "politically urban" as Raleigh-Durham, let alone Atlanta.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
829 posts, read 568,768 times
Reputation: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
It’s nothing liken manhattan. Obviously, neither of you 2 have bee. To Manhattan. Big or small, it’s not like
Manhattan at all.
I’m from NY originally. Stop lumping me in with other statements, none of these cities look like Manhattan, including LA. I understand LA is a larger, more gridlike pattern. But the region sprawls like no other. There’s a reason it’s traffic is horrible, and they have an underutilized heavy rail system.

Again, sure there are different qualities in LA, but so to with Atlanta and Charlotte.

Five Points station itself feels gritty, big city subway style layout. And the areas around it. Charlotte doesn’t have stuff like this, nowhere uptown has this lol. Peachtree Center is a subway station connected to an urban mall, where can I find this in Charlotte? You haven’t had any answers for several large urban universities here either, what are your thoughts? Downtown Atlanta is a different beast than uptown, uptown is more like our midtown without the subway stations.

Last edited by meep; 09-20-2018 at 08:09 PM..
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:06 AM
 
3,452 posts, read 3,133,692 times
Reputation: 3403
Quote:
Originally Posted by meep View Post
I’m from NY originally. Stop lumping me in with other statements, none of these cities look like Manhattan, including LA. I understand LA is a larger, more gridlike pattern. But the region sprawls like no other. There’s a reason it’s traffic is horrible, and they have an underutilized heavy rail system.

Again, sure there are different qualities in LA, but so to with Atlanta and Charlotte.

Five Points station itself feels gritty, big city subway style layout. And the areas around it. Charlotte doesn’t have stuff like this, nowhere uptown has this lol. Peachtree Center is a subway station connected to an urban mall, where can I find this in Charlotte? You haven’t had any answers for several large urban universities here either, what are your thoughts? Downtown Atlanta is a different beast than uptown, uptown is more like our midtown without the subway stations.
I get it, but when did grit or urban somehow correlate to being better? Atlanta definitely has more grit, traffic and urbanity...so does NYC. Atlanta's Marta rail (which I've ridden a few times), isn't very practical since it was built in a southern sprawling city like Charlotte. Atlanta is definitely much more like Charlotte than NYC aside from a few pockets of urbanity. It's just a big southern city, I go there enough to know. It's similar to DC with respect to people attempting to be a tad more important (pretentious) than they are. It's just big city kuntry.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:22 AM
 
3,452 posts, read 3,133,692 times
Reputation: 3403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian14A View Post
Urban politics comparisons:

The 2016 Presidential election results:

In the IMMEDIATE Atlanta area: SIX counties went blue
In the IMMEDIATE Raleigh-Durham area: FOUR counties went blue
in the ENTIRE Charlotte area, Mecklenburg was the ONLY county that went blue.

Charlotte's not as "politically urban" as Raleigh-Durham, let alone Atlanta.
Same for Austin, Dallas and San Antonio. Houston area only had two....what are you saying that Austin is less politically urban...whatever the hell that means. You can't be serious.


https://www.texastribune.org/2016/11...political-sea/
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
829 posts, read 568,768 times
Reputation: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
I get it, but when did grit or urban somehow correlate to being better? Atlanta definitely has more grit, traffic and urbanity...so does NYC. Atlanta's Marta rail (which I've ridden a few times), isn't very practical since it was built in a southern sprawling city like Charlotte. Atlanta is definitely much more like Charlotte than NYC aside from a few pockets of urbanity. It's just a big southern city, I go there enough to know. It's similar to DC with respect to people attempting to be a tad more important (pretentious) than they are. It's just big city kuntry.
Well, sure, but LA is more like Charlotte than NY as well. This doesn’t mean much. Honestly where you at in each place determines this, though there is no comparison in size, Downtown Atlanta alone would give me more Brooklynish type vibe than a Charlotte one lol. When my family visits, they actually note how certain areas look like up north. Now, if I’m in buckhead, sure that’s just a more upscale, busier version of a Charlotte CBD.

And what you are calling a few pockets are some of the biggest districts in the metro area, especially midtown. Even if we are more like Charlotte than NY overall, this doesn’t imply Atlanta is just a big Charlotte. I can experience different things here, not just more of the same stuff. Charlotte really needs to form its own identity, so people can stop pretending it is the same as other sunbelt metros.

Last edited by meep; 09-21-2018 at 08:03 AM..
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:31 AM
 
65 posts, read 25,452 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
Same for Austin, Dallas and San Antonio. Houston area only had two....what are you saying that Austin is less politically urban...whatever the hell that means. You can't be serious.


https://www.texastribune.org/2016/11...political-sea/
Number one, I wasn't comparing Charlotte to Texas cities, I was comparing Charlotte to two southeastern cities and regions that are closer both geographically and culturally. But since you went there...

Mecklenburg county area: 546 sqmi

Harris County area: 1,777 sqmi = 3 Mecklenburgs
Bexar County area: 1,256 sqmi = 2 Mecklenburgs
Travis County area: 1,032 sqmi = 2 Meckenburgs
Dallas County area: 909 sqmi = 2 Mecklenburgs
Ft Bend County area: 885 sqmi = 1.5 Mecklenburgs

A total of over 10 Mecklenburg counties in area. Reduce those counties down to Mecklenburg size in area and you've got 10 more politically urban counties.
___________________________________

But getting back to the OP....Atlanta has 6 counties that went blue in 2016, Raleigh-Durham has 4 counties that went blue in 2016, Charlotte had only 1 county that went blue in 2016...and that county's area is a mere 546 sqmi. The Charlotte metro region is basically one small blue dot surrounded by Trump country.

Last edited by Sebastian14A; 09-21-2018 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,560 posts, read 7,639,930 times
Reputation: 4361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
I get it, but when did grit or urban somehow correlate to being better? Atlanta definitely has more grit, traffic and urbanity...so does NYC. Atlanta's Marta rail (which I've ridden a few times), isn't very practical since it was built in a southern sprawling city like Charlotte. Atlanta is definitely much more like Charlotte than NYC aside from a few pockets of urbanity. It's just a big southern city, I go there enough to know. It's similar to DC with respect to people attempting to be a tad more important (pretentious) than they are. It's just big city kuntry.
I can find more agreement with you guys than you might believe, but so many comments are pushing buttons at not understanding parts of Atlanta too.

Of course Atlanta is much more like Charlotte than NYC, but NYC does have a huge sprawling foot print of low-density suburbs too. That is what what some of the comments previously made were being missed. Size/land area of sprawl isn't just about the design of the core of town.

One issue is is the older cities are more urban in the core with little doubt, but many of the areas built post-car are much the same. So when someone says NYC and Philly are also sprawling, they aren't always commenting on the obviously more urban and larger footprint of the core areas.

The spatial foot print of the Urban Areas (UA) of large northeastern and Midwestern cities are quite large often on the same scale of Atlanta's UA. The difference is the density in the much older city center, which is quite large for NYC, but more moderate for Philly and Baltimore for their whole greater region. And of course Atlanta is on the heavy end of 'light.'

In regards to MARTA... I want to quote a small passage I brought up in my book chapter a little while ago...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
I see large similarities with Atlanta's Midtown (in the past) and Charlotte's Southend. Both areas defined by parallel arterial roads leading out of the CBD towards the wealthier side of town. In the older days it was a key area of retail and light industrial areas growing and competing for business on the wealthier side of town. That is how both areas were originally developed.

The superior roads, easier implementation of transit, and lack of single family home NIMBY's make it a prime area to target denser redevelopment. Of course a key difference is the type of buildings in South End today can't afford to develop in Atlanta's Midtown and up in scattered peripheral areas and along the Atlanta Beltline. Atlanta's Midtown has become a full-fledged CBD in its own right with 23 million square feet of office space (more than Upton Charlotte) and highrise condo towers are more the norm.

The investment we made in MARTA doesn't magically turn into a commuter service for the whole region, but it also did a great deal to turn our "South End" neighborhood (and beyond) into a much more urban core and central business district that also has our densest residential population in the city.

To such a success that many people lump the area as being a part of Atlanta's downtown with a skyline gap.

You got to remember 40 years ago Atlanta's Midtown was very much like Southend today.

So while MARTA isn't a one-size fits all commuter service, it's actually been very effective for purposes in key areas that shouldn't be ignored in umbrella statements.

It still moves close to half a million riders/day and it is the rough equivalent of an added 6x6 lane freeway going in/out of our core and is an important key component of our large-scale event/convention/trade show industry.

So whenever I come into these Charlotte threads, many are so quick to proclaim MARTA ineffective, Atlanta a giant parking lot, and one poster even oddly argued Charlotte was more urban.

Then when someone calls them on it somehow we end up in conversations about Philly and NYC to conflate the topic, not discuss or reach towards understanding about Atlanta and Charlotte.

Now please realize as I say all this, I am in general agreement Charlotte and Atlanta as Piedmont-based Sunbelt cities are more alike, especially with these other distracting comparisons.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,560 posts, read 7,639,930 times
Reputation: 4361
One message of caution...

One problem this thread is suffering from from commenters on all sides is staying on topic with each other.

We keep switching between Charlotte/Atlanta, Atlanta/Philly, and now Atlanta/NYC, that people are meandering away from discussing the original points they wanted to make.

This thread also isn't doing much to help Charlotte in understanding their own city or how its going to grow and the pressure they will be under anymore.


I think it would be wise to shift most comments to being solely about Atlanta/Charlotte to try to reach understanding.


Charlotte posters are also at times being over-generous at trying to find ways to discredit Atlanta size, power, and credibility of as a city. This becomes particularly confusing when Charlotte pretty much has followed in the same footsteps. It's time to feel comfortable with our own success, rather than feel a need to prove something to some random urban C/D booster from Philly that has an axe to grind because we're the modern fast growing economies now.

A few of the Atlanta posters would do good to understand and see Charlotte's success. They are like our kid-sister growing up in the same area and yes they are closer to 1/3 to 1/2 our size. Atlanta is capitol of the South. I'd prefer to think we will be the capitol of a powerful region, rather than the only game in town.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,745 posts, read 3,265,475 times
Reputation: 2645
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
I can find more agreement with you guys than you might believe, but so many comments are pushing buttons at not understanding parts of Atlanta too.

Of course Atlanta is much more like Charlotte than NYC, but NYC does have a huge sprawling foot print of low-density suburbs too. That is what what some of the comments previously made were being missed. Size/land area of sprawl isn't just about the design of the core of town.

One issue is is the older cities are more urban in the core with little doubt, but many of the areas built post-car are much the same. So when someone says NYC and Philly are also sprawling, they aren't always commenting on the obviously more urban and larger footprint of the core areas.

The spatial foot print of the Urban Areas (UA) of large northeastern and Midwestern cities are quite large often on the same scale of Atlanta's UA. The difference is the density in the much older city center, which is quite large for NYC, but more moderate for Philly and Baltimore for their whole greater region. And of course Atlanta is on the heavy end of 'light.'

In regards to MARTA... I want to quote a small passage I brought up in my book chapter a little while ago...




The investment we made in MARTA doesn't magically turn into a commuter service for the whole region, but it also did a great deal to turn our "South End" neighborhood (and beyond) into a much more urban core and central business district that also has our densest residential population in the city.

To such a success that many people lump the area as being a part of Atlanta's downtown with a skyline gap.

You got to remember 40 years ago Atlanta's Midtown was very much like Southend today.

So while MARTA isn't a one-size fits all commuter service, it's actually been very effective for purposes in key areas that shouldn't be ignored in umbrella statements.

It still moves close to half a million riders/day and it is the rough equivalent of an added 6x6 lane freeway going in/out of our core and is an important key component of our large-scale event/convention/trade show industry.

So whenever I come into these Charlotte threads, many are so quick to proclaim MARTA ineffective, Atlanta a giant parking lot, and one poster even oddly argued Charlotte was more urban.

Then when someone calls them on it somehow we end up in conversations about Philly and NYC to conflate the topic, not discuss or reach towards understanding about Atlanta and Charlotte.

Now please realize as I say all this, I am in general agreement Charlotte and Atlanta as Piedmont-based Sunbelt cities are more alike, especially with these other distracting comparisons.

No poster said Charlotte was more urban.


A poster said, in response to Charlotte being a giant parking lot and a sprawling city, that Atlanta is an even bigger parking lot and a bigger sprawling city.

That’s completely different than saying Charlotte is more urban.


Otherwise, I can agree with your last 2 post.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:23 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,877 posts, read 27,138,998 times
Reputation: 8943
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
I can find more agreement with you guys than you might believe, but so many comments are pushing buttons at not understanding parts of Atlanta too.

Of course Atlanta is much more like Charlotte than NYC, but NYC does have a huge sprawling foot print of low-density suburbs too. That is what what some of the comments previously made were being missed. Size/land area of sprawl isn't just about the design of the core of town.

One issue is is the older cities are more urban in the core with little doubt, but many of the areas built post-car are much the same. So when someone says NYC and Philly are also sprawling, they aren't always commenting on the obviously more urban and larger footprint of the core areas.

The spatial foot print of the Urban Areas (UA) of large northeastern and Midwestern cities are quite large often on the same scale of Atlanta's UA. The difference is the density in the much older city center, which is quite large for NYC, but more moderate for Philly and Baltimore for their whole greater region. And of course Atlanta is on the heavy end of 'light.'

In regards to MARTA... I want to quote a small passage I brought up in my book chapter a little while ago...




The investment we made in MARTA doesn't magically turn into a commuter service for the whole region, but it also did a great deal to turn our "South End" neighborhood (and beyond) into a much more urban core and central business district that also has our densest residential population in the city.

To such a success that many people lump the area as being a part of Atlanta's downtown with a skyline gap.

You got to remember 40 years ago Atlanta's Midtown was very much like Southend today.

So while MARTA isn't a one-size fits all commuter service, it's actually been very effective for purposes in key areas that shouldn't be ignored in umbrella statements.

It still moves close to half a million riders/day and it is the rough equivalent of an added 6x6 lane freeway going in/out of our core and is an important key component of our large-scale event/convention/trade show industry.

So whenever I come into these Charlotte threads, many are so quick to proclaim MARTA ineffective, Atlanta a giant parking lot, and one poster even oddly argued Charlotte was more urban.

Then when someone calls them on it somehow we end up in conversations about Philly and NYC to conflate the topic, not discuss or reach towards understanding about Atlanta and Charlotte.

Now please realize as I say all this, I am in general agreement Charlotte and Atlanta as Piedmont-based Sunbelt cities are more alike, especially with these other distracting comparisons.
You do understand, don't you, that MARTA came about because of a federal program. They needed a line to sell it to other locations. That line was the PATCO line, using existing tracks & some existing stations.

The feds now support light rail. The cracks about Charlotte's light rail in this thread vs Atlanta's heavy rail are disingenuous. Different times, different federal priorities.
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