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Old 06-13-2012, 09:34 AM
 
3,914 posts, read 3,937,216 times
Reputation: 1272

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coped View Post
... NASCAR also gets plenty of government subsidies and tax breaks.
OK, nextel cup. Many people, such as myself still refer to it by the old name. I hope this clears it up for you.

My comment about government money wasn't about NASCAR, it was about the Charlotte Motor Speedway.
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,712 posts, read 9,332,122 times
Reputation: 5226
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrvol2012 View Post
Try again. In 2011, the Pirates drew 1,940,429 fans. The Steelers drew 504,279.

FYI, the average economic impact of a MLB team per city on average is over $300 million per season. The average for an NFL team per city per year is $160 million.

So it's not so personal and you can look objectively, think about the Minnesota (almost the Carolina in the late 90's) Twins if you don't believe the importance of MLB. In 2011, 3,168,107 fans in a MLB market 2/3 the size of Charlotte and in a state with nearly 10 million less people than the Carolinas, that's very cold, and not near the baseball hotbed. By comparison, their beloved Vikings drew 502,529.
OK, even with last years numbers it's 1.9 mill but that isn't "actual" number of people who attended the games. That's the number of tickets "sold" or given away and most seats are 12 to 15 bucks. They have definitely increased the last 2 years due to playing better ball but plenty of times they announced a crowd of 20K when 12K were physically in the seats. Baseball doesn't have to report the actual turnstyle numbers so they are usually inflated.


Now the average impact for MLB is also inflated due to the top 10 teams drawing well... It's no different then Bill Gates and Zuckerberg being in a room with 10 other thousandairs and the average net worth becomes Billions per person.

Look at the Forbes numbers for the Pirates in 2010 vs the Steelers in 2007.

In 2010 Ranked 30th....Pirates are valued at 304 Million
Revenue 160 mill
Ticket receipts 27 mill
average tick: 17.00

In 2007 the Ranked 16th Steelers are valued at 929 million
Revenue 198 million
Gate receipts: 40 mill
avg txt: 59.00

If you take averages I can see how you would lean towards MLB but you have to remember where these 2 teams fair within their markets. Also remember the luxury suites and lower levels for Steeler games are $6400.00 to $500.00 while the Pirates best seats are probably $300.00 and empty.

One last thing... while the official number of the Steelers was 502K this doesn't include 2 preseason games which are full price and must be included in season ticket packages ...and the Steelers usually have a home game in the playoffs every other year.

Last edited by Feltdesigner; 06-13-2012 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:46 AM
 
351 posts, read 389,973 times
Reputation: 337
A look at BB&T Ballpark

http://alturl.com/cq9r9
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Old 06-13-2012, 12:23 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,842 posts, read 27,103,048 times
Reputation: 8900
I think that Uptown is a much better location. It will be much easier for people north as well as west of the city to get there.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,712 posts, read 9,332,122 times
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Are they going to have any restaurants attached to the stadium?
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
346 posts, read 548,455 times
Reputation: 199
My husband is dying, dying I tell ya, because he misses the Braves and we don't get them on Dish. We are southerners through and through and DH would love for Charlotte to have a MLB team. I see what you're saying though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
Here in the South I don't think MLB is that important to people as it is in Yankee cities. While there is some interest in it, as a native I can tell you that for the vast majority of people in the 100 mile area area around Charlotte, having or not having a MLB team makes not one iota difference to the status of Charlotte as a city. It's irrelevant. On the other hand the response would be similar to the world ending if NASCAR tried to remove one of the Winston Cup races from the Charlotte Motor Speedway. (which BTW was built without any government money)

All these arguments were made for tearing down the perfectly good Charlotte Coliseum and replacing it with the Bobcats Arena (or whatever corp. name is stuck on it for the moment) and in the end, none of it was true. It all comes down to the sport, the performance of the team, and interest. Not how much money was spent on the chairs or benches the people sit in. None of this is ever mentioned but it's proven over and over time and time again. They will build this stadium, and like the other sports venues in the downtown area, it will be nothing but a huge area of dead space for most of the nights of the year.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:55 PM
 
42 posts, read 55,575 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltdesigner View Post
OK, even with last years numbers it's 1.9 mill but that isn't "actual" number of people who attended the games. That's the number of tickets "sold" or given away and most seats are 12 to 15 bucks. They have definitely increased the last 2 years due to playing better ball but plenty of times they announced a crowd of 20K when 12K were physically in the seats. Baseball doesn't have to report the actual turnstyle numbers so they are usually inflated.


Now the average impact for MLB is also inflated due to the top 10 teams drawing well... It's no different then Bill Gates and Zuckerberg being in a room with 10 other thousandairs and the average net worth becomes Billions per person.

Look at the Forbes numbers for the Pirates in 2010 vs the Steelers in 2007.

In 2010 Ranked 30th....Pirates are valued at 304 Million
Revenue 160 mill
Ticket receipts 27 mill
average tick: 17.00

In 2007 the Ranked 16th Steelers are valued at 929 million
Revenue 198 million
Gate receipts: 40 mill
avg txt: 59.00

If you take averages I can see how you would lean towards MLB but you have to remember where these 2 teams fair within their markets. Also remember the luxury suites and lower levels for Steeler games are $6400.00 to $500.00 while the Pirates best seats are probably $300.00 and empty.

One last thing... while the official number of the Steelers was 502K this doesn't include 2 preseason games which are full price and must be included in season ticket packages ...and the Steelers usually have a home game in the playoffs every other year.
But regardless of whether it's 3 or 4 times as many gate receipts, how many hotel rooms and restaurants/vendors are served on a nightly/weekend basis when people are actually out attending a game, especially from those consumers outside of the Pittsburgh city limits? How about being able to see the home team on TV 162 times a year instead of 16?

I used Pittsburgh for the very reason that the Pirates are a dead dog franchise and the Steelers are a religion, which has been spread everywhere! The NFL is also lapping the field of ALL other competitive sports in terms of popularity, as shown in all levels of society to include TV ratings. On that note, this city is about to explode over the next decade with a star who has skills of which have never been seen before. It's simply amazing however that MLB has become a "filler" sport at best for many, yet still provides almost twice the economic impact for the average big league city than the NFL.

It's also sad that this city (currently with approximately 1 million more people in the 100 mile radius than Pittsburgh and still growing) chose to sidestep at best, and forever forego at worst, these benefits. Baseball fan or not, this is simply sad for the city and region. This after decades of growth while Pittsburgh and their rustbelt neighbors such as Cleveland and Detroit have less populations now than they had 100 years ago, and half the populations of 50 years ago.

The bottom line-Minor league baseball had it's proud place in Charlotte long ago, but in the high tech 24/7 internet world of 2012, in our current place in history, to spend public money on it without a clear, stated plan to upgrade or expand, is complete madness, and profoundly stupid for numerous reasons.

PS-Another misnomer in this boondoggle is the ticket prices. Just a guess, but the average ticket price for a game at the BB&T will be the same as the price of a MAJOR LEAGUE game at PNC Park that you listed. Tampa had PLAYOFF tickets for $9 a pop face value last year and didn't sell out. Ridiculous.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,712 posts, read 9,332,122 times
Reputation: 5226
If the Pirates and Tampa struggle with ticket sales are prime examples why they aren't impacting their cities like you think they are...

Who is filling up these hotels? How many people really travel to Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Tampa to watch these teams?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Pirates are turning things around and now that they are spending money on talent the park is a bonus but man.... for years it was fireworks abd bobble head promos and not the team on the field.

One thing you have to remember though is the rust belt cities weren't always rusty. Detroit, Pittsburgh and Cleveland were booming cities and baseball was the #1 sport when these teams were founded. You can't ignore this when pointing at population and economics.

I think Charlotte will fill this small park and in 10 years they may be ready for the MLB. The new stadium design is awesome though....
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:03 PM
 
12,385 posts, read 7,435,098 times
Reputation: 23217
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrvol2012 View Post
PS-Another misnomer in this boondoggle is the ticket prices. Just a guess, but the average ticket price for a game at the BB&T will be the same as the price of a MAJOR LEAGUE game at PNC Park that you listed. Tampa had PLAYOFF tickets for $9 a pop face value last year and didn't sell out. Ridiculous.

As of right now ticket prices to a knight's game is between $8-$15. The cheapest seats for a Major League game are usually around $15 and go up close to $300. Even for a brand new minor league stadium, tickets are not going to go up that much (if at all) to be at the same price point of a major league game.

I'm not really sure what Tampa not being able to sell out a playoff game has to do with this, except maybe it supports that another major league team in the South isn't such a good idea. Atlanta doesn't sell out playoff games either.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,937,192 times
Reputation: 1357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis101 View Post
A look at BB&T Ballpark

A look at BB&T Ballpark - YouTube
It actually seems quite small. I think my alum has a bigger stadium than this and they don't have seats in the outfield. The front entry looks nice.
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