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Old 08-07-2012, 10:33 PM
 
2,341 posts, read 4,048,227 times
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Thank you. I'm ok with this monument, but let's not rewrite history. Disgusting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
They were young men who were fighting for a better life for themselves and their families (the only avenue for that "better life" for many was to fight along side their oppressors); IMO they should be honored. However, the fact that some people in 2012 try to use their (black confederates) existence in some desperate attempt to show that "the south wasn't THAT bad" makes me want to throw up in my mouth. In other words, I feel the same way as you probably do...
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:00 AM
 
3,914 posts, read 3,945,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
.... "the south wasn't THAT bad" makes me want to throw up in my mouth. In other words, I feel the same way as you probably do...
Let's keep in mind that the North gladly profited off slavery as much as the South. There were no embargos of goods from the South produced by slavery. Cotton ended up in Northern mills, tobacco was smoked by everyone, the only source of rice in the USA came from plantations in SC, and NYC was built, in part, from trade of slave goods with Europe and Northern bankers financing the entire operation. And let us not forget that slave ships and financing of the slave trade and plantations came from the North.

Slavery wasn't a Southern institution, it was an American one. George Washington owned slaves. Does he make you want to throw up too? So IMO, there was no difference between the North & the South in regards to slavery except the North was more hypocritical about it.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:45 AM
 
6,270 posts, read 10,002,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
Slavery wasn't a Southern institution, it was an American one. George Washington owned slaves. Does he make you want to throw up too? So IMO, there was no difference between the North & the South in regards to slavery except the North was more hypocritical about it.
Much of this is well documented and is totally beside the point of what I stated. I've noticed recently that many proud southerners wish to use any and every excuse to make the old south look better than what it really was. The existence of black Confederate soldiers being one of those excuses. I won't get too deep into this topic, but many of the problems we see today within the AA community never would've existed if the institution of slavery (and the war effort to keep it going) had never happened. When the spirits of proud people have been broken to the point that many chose to fight along side their enemies, it honestly makes me want to cry. Again, they should be honored, but to sugarcoat history is shameful.
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,723 posts, read 9,353,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
First off, you need a sound lesson on the history of slavery in america to put things in perspective. What individual experience do you offer? My parents experienced Jim Crow and racism in this country that has severely scarred their idea of racial harmony to a certain extent; trust me, their positions have transformed significantly but those scars will never totally heal. The ugly legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, random lynchings is only one generation removed for many african americans in the south...1964 wasn't that long ago. My experience: I started elementary school 1 year after school integration in our county in southeastern NC (1970)....there were tense moments and clashes at the high school level but people with higher values prevailed against racial ignorace. Needless to say, as an elementary school kid, I was somewhat oblivous to what was actually happening but do recall school days being cancelled for an incident here or there.

So, if your Russian father or relatives were being honored for fighting alongside the SS in Kiev (which some probably did) although the SS in Kiev slaughtered their own people....how would that really make you feel about those being honored? At minimum, you'd rational they did it due to circumstances, not because of conviction.

Lastly, how can you compare slave conditions to non-slavery harsh living? Again, you're diminishing or underestimating the horrors and conditions in the life of a slave.

On topic, I think it's ok to honor anybody, but let's keep things in perspective.
Great post...

as I said earlier, I'm not against it but I don't know how I feel about it.
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:39 AM
 
3,455 posts, read 3,137,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
Let's keep in mind that the North gladly profited off slavery as much as the South. There were no embargos of goods from the South produced by slavery. Cotton ended up in Northern mills, tobacco was smoked by everyone, the only source of rice in the USA came from plantations in SC, and NYC was built, in part, from trade of slave goods with Europe and Northern bankers financing the entire operation. And let us not forget that slave ships and financing of the slave trade and plantations came from the North.

Slavery wasn't a Southern institution, it was an American one. George Washington owned slaves. Does he make you want to throw up too? So IMO, there was no difference between the North & the South in regards to slavery except the North was more hypocritical about it.
That is correct, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves who were residents of Virginia, a southern state. Maybe you should read up on Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad. Although conditions for freed slaves were less than desirable up "north"...the concept was to flee to freedom or to the northern states. The difference between freedom and being a slave is huge difference in my opinion.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,898 posts, read 27,173,603 times
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I found some information about Mr Ashcraft.

Roster of Company I, 53rd NC Infantry

. . .Further stated that he was born a slave to Big John Ashcraft in Union County and that when Rafe Ashcraft, son of Big John was mustered from service on account of disability, applicant was sent to army in his stead . . .
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:16 AM
 
3,914 posts, read 3,945,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
That is correct, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves who were residents of Virginia, a southern state. Maybe you should read up on Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad. Although conditions for freed slaves were less than desirable up "north"...the concept was to flee to freedom or to the northern states. The difference between freedom and being a slave is huge difference in my opinion.
10 of the 27 Founding Fathers who owned slaves were from the North.

The British gladly brought slavery to Colonial America and supported it for close to 200 years until the Revolution. Most of the slave labor was located in the South because the labor was needed to exploit the resources there. This is why the South supported slavery because otherwise the economy built by the British would have collapsed without it. The North gladly supported it because they also depended upon this goods and the foreign capital it generated. It's as simple as that.

IMO, judging people of 150+ years ago by modern standards is both arrogant and ignorant. The notion being spun here of the North being full of enlightened people is just as silly as the one about the South being full of ruthless slave owners. The reality is quite different.

You comment of freedom vs slavery is completely irrelevant because the above does not make that judgment.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:27 AM
 
6,270 posts, read 10,002,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
10 of the 27 Founding Fathers who owned slaves were from the North.

The British gladly brought slavery to Colonial America and supported it for close to 200 years until the Revolution. Most of the slave labor was located in the South because the labor was needed to exploit the resources there. This is why the South supported slavery because otherwise the economy built by the British would have collapsed without it. The North gladly supported it because they also depended upon this goods and the foreign capital it generated. It's as simple as that.

IMO, judging people of 150+ years ago by modern standards is both arrogant and ignorant. The notion being spun here of the North being full of enlightened people is just as silly as the one about the South being full of ruthless slave owners. The reality is quite different.

You comment of freedom vs slavery is completely irrelevant because the above does not make that judgment.
Let's just say that the south won the war. What plans did the south have on the books for ending slavery after such a victory?
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,270 posts, read 88,380,615 times
Reputation: 39856
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad;25534598

Let's keep in mind that the North gladly profited off slavery as much as the South.

There were no embargos of goods from the South produced by slavery.

Cotton ended up in Northern mills, tobacco was smoked by everyone, the only source of rice in the USA came from plantations in SC, and NYC was built, in part, from trade of slave goods with Europe and Northern bankers financing the entire operation.

And let us not forget that slave ships and financing of the slave trade and plantations came from the North.

Slavery wasn't a Southern institution, it was an American one.

George Washington owned slaves. Does he make you want to throw up too?

So IMO, there was no difference between the North & the South in regards to slavery except the North was more hypocritical about it.
Yep
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,270 posts, read 88,380,615 times
Reputation: 39856
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
10 of the 27 Founding Fathers who owned slaves were from the North.

The British gladly brought slavery to Colonial America and supported it for close to 200 years until the Revolution. Most of the slave labor was located in the South because the labor was needed to exploit the resources there. This is why the South supported slavery because otherwise the economy built by the British would have collapsed without it. The North gladly supported it because they also depended upon this goods and the foreign capital it generated. It's as simple as that.

IMO, judging people of 150+ years ago by modern standards is both arrogant and ignorant. The notion being spun here of the North being full of enlightened people is just as silly as the one about the South being full of ruthless slave owners. The reality is quite different.

You comment of freedom vs slavery is completely irrelevant because the above does not make that judgment.

Again, some of the best comments on this thread - thank you.
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