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Old 08-27-2012, 09:44 AM
 
3,914 posts, read 3,958,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Differing opinions are good. We are all entitled to our opinions. Most of the time, folks offering an opinion expect that there will be discussion. Sometimes, tho, folks think it is a matter of being right or being wrong and their opinion is actually fact . . .

It's the classic Catch-22. But the only way security planning will be judged, in the end, will be after the fact, and even then, there will be differing opinions.
Thank you Ani. Nobody really cares to hear that they have been "venting for weeks". This serves absolutely no purpose in this topic or any topic except for one.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:02 AM
 
3,468 posts, read 3,153,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Differing opinions are good. We are all entitled to our opinions. Most of the time, folks offering an opinion expect that there will be discussion. Sometimes, tho, folks think it is a matter of being right or being wrong and their opinion is actually fact . . .

There is no way to know for a fact how much is or isn't necessary as far as LE at this or any other convention. If no incidents occur, there will be opinions on whether the reasons behind a peaceful gathering were the result of an oppressive police presence or it meant things were handled exactly as needed.

If there is an incident, there will be cries of poor planning and lack of law enforcement, check points, screening, too many protestors - whatever (pick your "reason").

It's the classic Catch-22. But the only way security planning will be judged, in the end, will be after the fact, and even then, there will be differing opinions.
The Catch-22 is the amount of freedom or liberties at disposable when an incident does occur. So, I think it's wise to intimidate or use these types of scare tactics to minimize the potential threat. As you stated, those who feel their freedoms or liberties are being violated will complain anyway - blame the LEO for being incompetent, etc., probably the reason all the bemoaning falls on deaf ear and why those in charge of security detail usually take the better safe than sorry route....this is typical military formality/procedure, it's a rather anal-retentive environment because one slip-up could mean disaster.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,794 posts, read 9,391,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromekitty View Post
No, bless yours...you see your condescending pompass attitude speaks volumes. And please stop dm'ing me with your silly thoughts and threats...it IS against TOS.
"mind yo bidness... lol." is a threat?


Well, with the increased LEO presence you have nothing to worry about... except for the police.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,794 posts, read 9,391,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
The Catch-22 is the amount of freedom or liberties at disposable when an incident does occur. So, I think it's wise to intimidate or use these types of scare tactics to minimize the potential threat. As you stated, those who feel their freedoms or liberties are being violated will complain anyway - blame the LEO for being incompetent, etc., probably the reason all the bemoaning falls on deaf ear and why those in charge of security detail usually take the better safe than sorry route....this is typical military formality/procedure, it's a rather anal-retentive environment because one slip-up could mean disaster.
The Catch-22 is the people who complain about the presence even though they have no intentions of attending the convention.

The LEO's will be blamed regardless of the outcome...
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
.... As you stated, those who feel their freedoms or liberties are being violated will complain anyway - blame the LEO for being incompetent, etc., probably the reason all the bemoaning falls on deaf ear.....
At the last DNC convention, freedoms and liberties being violated included mass arrest of protesters by the police with no just cause. This was the ruling of the court who didn't turn a deaf ear at it at all. Now the taxpayers are paying for this as well as the hundreds of court cases that each individual getting arrested generates for the court system. All of this is consuming vast amounts of local resources that now can't be used to combat real criminal activity. The kind that actually does hurt people.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:06 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,193,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
Thank you Ani. Nobody really cares to hear that they have been "venting for weeks". This serves absolutely no purpose in this topic or any topic except for one.
One of my favorite pieces of American Lit is Thoreau's Civil Disobedience. I won't get into my personal analysis of the piece, either as a period piece or as it applies to our federal/state government today. Nor will I debate the misconception that Thoreau may have been advocating anarchy.

I bring it up only to illustrate that examining the "mechanics" of decisions our government makes is valid and prudent.

Erosion of liberties is, indeed, a series of small injustices . . . and governments in and of themselves are the agents of injustice (as injustice is defined by Thoreau).

So without getting into a deep discussion . . . I would simply say that we are foolish if we do not recognize that our civil liberties have been eroded since 9/11. There are few who would not argue this in re: to The Patriot Act.

How does this apply to the ramp up of police presence in our fair city during the DNC?

I am not sure.

We all agree: we want LE to thwart any possibility of violence and we want them to effectively handle any disruptions that may occur.

Is there a hidden agenda woven into "crowd control" that has been purposely devised to keep the voices of protestors minimized - and when possible - silenced?

I am not sure. To some, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it walks like a duck - it is a duck. I would agree that there certainly could be citizen repression at work . . . but until the events have unfolded, there is no way to "prove" that this was the intent.

Unless someone in years to come reveals behind the scenes discussions in a memoir (which does happen!) . . . we will never really know except what we officially have been told . . . other than conclusions drawn after-the-fact, when examining in retrospect what occurred.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:24 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,193,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
The Catch-22 is the amount of freedom or liberties at disposable when an incident does occur. So, I think it's wise to intimidate or use these types of scare tactics to minimize the potential threat. As you stated, those who feel their freedoms or liberties are being violated will complain anyway - blame the LEO for being incompetent, etc., probably the reason all the bemoaning falls on deaf ear and why those in charge of security detail usually take the better safe than sorry route....this is typical military formality/procedure, it's a rather anal-retentive environment because one slip-up could mean disaster.
You are entirely correct . . . one mistake and the consequences could be far-reaching.

Perhaps we should examine why we even hold these conventions in various cities . . . maybe that is something we should visit, framing the risks in light of a post 9/11 world.

That was mentioned earlier in the thread and honestly, I personally think it is worth discussing. Cities have always considered it a big boon to the economy and a way of spotlighting them as a great place to live, but maybe that day has passed. Maybe we need to move into the 21st Century and re-examine how we handle various aspects of the political process.

Delegates coming into town to whoop it up and spend money is not exactly integral to the political process.

Spending several hundred thousand dollars on planting flowers so delegates will see pretty medians is not my idea of well spent tax money . . . but that's just me! Maybe no one else sees it that way . . . the hundreds of thousands of dollars here and there - the millions of dollars it is taking to get Charlotte (or Tampa, for that matter) ready for a political convention (including cost of adding LE) . . . maybe a city struggling with its budget, located in a state struggling with its budget, governed by a federal government way past struggling with its budget . . . should perhaps be thinking more on the lines of austerity measures and seriousness of purpose (voting on a candidate, period).

Just a thought! I like flowers! Just like them more when they are donated rather than paid for with tax dollars.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:26 AM
 
3,914 posts, read 3,958,367 times
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I would argue that in a free society that it is unrealistic to have the goal of thwarting the possibility of all violence. Real democracy puts individual choice at a high level and sometimes people make the wrong choices and people suffer. This is the cost of such a society.

It should not go without note that the entire premise behind that of political parties is to limit choice that people have when choosing leaders via democratic means.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,794 posts, read 9,391,643 times
Reputation: 5270
We are a republic.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
11,794 posts, read 9,391,643 times
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I remember a few post about Militia's... maybe this is a conspiracy to ramp up LEO in Charlotte.

Military Terror Plot: Murder Case Uncovers Terror Plot By 'Militia' Within U.S. Military
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