Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Let me explain this so that a caveman can understand it. First, I'm not disputing your math. However I'm also trying to explain this in order for people not to have to deal with these kinds of equations.
In the consumer market, unless you wish to spend a huge amount of money for a pre-amp, then there are a very limited selection of amps that you can buy for less than $50. The choice usually comes down to 2-3 models that provide a fixed amount of gain. Most people tend to buy too much amp thinking that it will help. It doesn't. The rule of thumb that I gave simply allow people to rule out that selection from the process. Nothing more nothing less.
The rules of thumb that I gave are simply to allow people to choose from this limited availability of preamps that are sufficient to receive television in Charlotte. I'm responding to try and help people cut the cord in Charlotte. Not to teach them mathematics.
Let me explain this so that a caveman can understand it. First, I'm not disputing your math. However I'm also trying to explain this in order for people not to have to deal with these kinds of equations.
In the consumer market, unless you wish to spend a huge amount of money for a pre-amp, then there are a very limited selection of amps that you can buy for less than $50. The choice usually comes down to 2-3 models that provide a fixed amount of gain. Most people tend to buy too much amp thinking that it will help. It doesn't. The rule of thumb that I gave simply allow people to rule out that selection from the process. Nothing more nothing less.
The rules of thumb that I gave are simply to allow people to choose from this limited availability of preamps that are sufficient to receive television in Charlotte. I'm responding to try and help people cut the cord in Charlotte. Not to teach them mathematics.
For the sake of discussion I'm overlooking how incorrect your 50% rules are.
When people go to buy an amp, how will they apply your rules to decide what amp to buy? Will they look for the amp whose specs are based on multiples of 50% loss? If they have 100' of coax and two connections, should they buy an amp that has 150% signal improvement? Will they know what they need 150% of, if they don't know what they started with?
Please explain this so the cavemen will know what to do.
When people go to buy an amp, how will they apply your rules to decide what amp to buy? .
OK Poindexter. Why don't you give some people advice here on how to pick a low cost amp for their situation. Make sure that you include actual amps that can be purchased and not a mythical number. Keep in mind that people don't understand DB and have no way to measure signal strength in this manner.
We are here to provide advice.
If you can't do this, then I've already said how to apply it.
BTW, have you cut the cord here in Charlotte? I have and using what I said above, I'm receiving 27 channels with my antenna and pre-amp using the rule of thumb that I gave above. I'll be interested to hear a better way from you on how to set this up.
OK Poindexter. Why don't you give some people advice here on how to pick a low cost amp for their situation. Make sure that you include actual amps that can be purchased and not a mythical number. Keep in mind that people don't understand DB and have no way to measure signal strength in this manner.
We are here to provide advice.
If you can't do this, then I've already said how to apply it.
BTW, have you cut the cord here in Charlotte? I have and using what I said above, I'm receiving 27 channels with my antenna and pre-amp using the rule of thumb that I gave above. I'll be interested to hear a better way from you on how to set this up.
Your 50% rules are wrong unless the homeowner has a 6dB signal coming in. I've demonstrated that. That alone makes all of your posts regarding math pointless.
Buying an amp based on multiples of 50% loss is impossible (even if that figure is correct, which it almost always will not be), since few people are going to know what their incoming signal level is, and there is no spec on an amp that suggests compensation for loss from an unknown reference level. Again, posts based on this are pointless.
So far, nothing you've posted helps anyone buy an amp. No useful advice regarding an actual plan to buy an amp has been provided by you. I just want to make this point perfectly clear to you, since you think you've explained how someone can buy an amp. You have not. Until you recognize this, you'll just keep arguing with me, and that's doing nothing for the thread topic.
Your experience in your own home is anecdotal, and as such does not in any way justify the numbers you've presented. Maybe if you applied actual facts to your setup, and not a wild estimate, you might get more channels. Saying the one method you tried "works" is in no way indicative of that being the best method. My racketball swing "worked" for years. When a pro showed me a couple things, I picked up nearly 10 MPH on my serve, and my elbow hurt less when I played. My anecdotal method for serving, although functional, was NOT the best method.
The funny thing here, which I just realized, is that if people know enough (cable length/connections) to employ your estimate, they could add up those numbers to get a useful figure with which to buy an amp. They'd have no use for your estimates.
No, I have not cut the cord. There are too many programs I can't get OTA, and I have too many TVs to make using online programming a viable option. But I have designed distribution systems (albeit long ago, but the rules haven't changed), and overseen many hundreds of installations in which all manner of TV distribution were implemented.
Just to satisfy myself, I Googled loss in coax. In the first three pages I saw no reference to a percentage of loss as being a useful number, or frankly, any mention of it at all.
There are two ways to buy an amp that corrects for internal loss:
1. Know two things-what the signal level is at the TV (or tuner), and what the strength of the incoming signal is. Subtract, then buy an amp that corrects for that difference. Those figures can be determined through testing, or by closely estimating the length of the wiring and counting the connections inline. The latter method is much less accurate, obviously, but far more accurate than applying your rules to any system with an incoming signal level of more than 6 dB.
2. Guess. Buy a midsize (10dB?) amp, and if it works, you're done. If not, buy a different one. Repeat until TV reception is satisfactory. Better yet, buy an adjustable gain amp.
Anything in between can be an (un)educated guess, and the corresponding results may be equally random.
Since I don't know what anyone is working with, I can't possibly make any recommendations. That's been my point all along. Blanket recommendations, be they gear or "rules of thumb", with no (or worse yet, incorrect) basis, are useless.
Frankly, I probably couldn't make any hardware recommendations, because I've been out of that part of the business too long to know the current hardware. But I know the basic rules, and I also know incorrect facts when I see them.
As you say, we are trying to provide advice. My advice is that if someone wants to apply facts to the purchase of an amp, use facts that matter, not wild estimates. If a person knows enough to apply your rules, they know enough to turn that knowledge into useful data.
... I can't possibly make any recommendations. ....
Thought so. After all that, you are telling people to guess. My my.
I seem to remember now that you stated that OTA tuners in TVs were not important so I'm wondering why you are even responding in a topic except to take a topic, way off topic. Telling people to guess isn't good advice.
------------------------
My recommendation to everyone is that if you are going to look for amplifier for your situation then go to several antenna sites. They will tell you exactly what I said above. You ca simply add up the DB loss based simply on the # of ft. of coax that you are using and then add 3 db for each splitter that you have on the line. Then go find a pre-amp, and there are only a few under $30, that comes closest to this number. It will work fine. If your cable is less than 25 ft. you can probably get by without anything.
The indoor antenna I got from a friend, so no cost to us, so no big deal if there is a better option out there. I am willing to purchase a new one. This one DOES work if I am on our 3rd floor of our house, with it facing towards the city. If I am anywhere else in the house, it goes in and out.
We live in Union County (Marvin/Waxhaw) and live in a bit of a valley surrounded by trees, so signal is an issue for us.
Given the above, would you still suggest the antennas you suggested?
We did go to AntennaFool before we bought the outdoor antenna, but they weren't really specific.
Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
Hi Dawn, if you are located within Mecklenburg county, the first antenna is not the best choice for picking up Charlotte TV stations. Much of that antenna is devoted to picking up VHF band stations and there is only one station in CLT transmitting on VHF, WTVI. It's also on VHF - high so most UHF antennas are able to pick it up. However all is not lost. If that antenna is outside, then I would point it at one of the two antenna farms in the area. (East Charlotte and Dallas) and slowing moving it towards the other until you pickup all the stations. Trees and if you have it in an attic will reduce the effectiveness.
A good alternative was suggest above. You want something like a DB4 or DB8 or equivalent. Similar to this. Amazon.com: Antennas Direct DB4e Enhanced DB4 Long Range 'Bowtie' UHF DTV Antenna: Electronics This sort of design is popular for home built antennas. If you were to build it without a reflector, you will pickup everything within Mecklenburg very easily. The only downside is if you are near a lot of large trees the reflector helps to prevent reflections which can cause the station to drop out.
IMO, the second antenna is close to junk for the money spent. This is why you are having trouble with it. Again a lot of it is devoted to VHF whereas all the stations in Charlotte, except for WTVI, are in the UHF band.
(A quick explanation: when they went to Digital TV, all the stations with few exceptions were moved to UHF. UHF are channels above 14. However because this would confuse viewers, the new standard has something called a virtual channel number and this is what you see when you tune your TV. So for example this allows WSOC to show up as channel 9 on your TV when in fact it is UHF 34. )
I sent this one back. I got NO signal from this antenna.
Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC
I forgot about that Winegard FreeVision. That's another good choice for Charlotte suburban areas. And you may want to consider the Mohu Leaf that is made in Raleigh. It's about the only flat panel style antenna that gets good reviews.
Thought so. After all that, you are telling people to guess. My my.
I seem to remember now that you stated that OTA tuners in TVs were not important so I'm wondering why you are even responding in a topic except to take a topic, way off topic. Telling people to guess isn't good advice.
Wow. All that, and you picked one tiny phrase out of context and commented as if that's all I said. Then you took another comment I made out of context (TV tuners not being important) and again pretended as if that had been my entire conversation. Is this how you are in real life? It's very petty.
------------------------
Quote:
My recommendation to everyone is that if you are going to look for amplifier for your situation then go to several antenna sites. They will tell you exactly what I said above. You ca simply add up the DB loss based simply on the # of ft. of coax that you are using and then add 3 db for each splitter that you have on the line. Then go find a pre-amp, and there are only a few under $30, that comes closest to this number. It will work fine. If your cable is less than 25 ft. you can probably get by without anything.
What happened to your 50% rules? I thought that was your standard for determining what amp to buy. You were telling people to take 50% for this and 50% for that. Now suddenly you're on the same page as the rest of the distribution designing world. Why the complete turnaround from what you preached for two pages?
You should run for office. Ignore the posts that get in the way of your agenda, and pretend what's left over is the entirety of the discussion. You've got the turnarounds and obfuscations down.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
