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Old 12-17-2012, 10:05 AM
 
Location: International
221 posts, read 356,158 times
Reputation: 181

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are you guys really suggesting that school teachers have guns in their classrooms? wow

 
Old 12-17-2012, 10:41 AM
 
11,836 posts, read 25,421,690 times
Reputation: 2781
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
This^^, although one cop to cover an entire school may not make much of a difference anyway.

Criminals don't care about laws and policies. In a situation like Sandy Hook, and most of these mass murders we are seeing more often, only immediate armed resistance would have made any difference. I don't know how that factors into real life.
Companies often feel that one officer is enough mainly because of the cost per hour of said officer. If teachers were screened and allowed to carry a personal concealed firearm they would be more likely to stop a potential shooter if the officer was unavailable.
 
Old 12-17-2012, 11:51 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 66,969,221 times
Reputation: 22369
The national discussion should be on MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES and getting help for folks dealing with behavioral health issues. This should include a real effort to make resources available to PARENTS who have very little recourse or resources when dealing with an adolescent or older child while mental health issues.

It isn't the gun that kills . . . it really is people that kill.

Within hours of the Connecticut shooting, a man in China killed 22 children with a KNIFE.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-in-china?lite

Mentally ill, irrational and/or psychotic people -- who are bent on killing others -- will find a way to do it. If they don't have a gun, it will be a knife or a bomb or stangulation or poison.

If you will remember, this is also what occurred at Virginia Tech -- a mentally ill student . . . and same with the Aurora movie theatre shooter.

Until we stop hiding mental illness in our own families (or minimizing it). . . and until we have easy to access, affordable and community supported mental health assistance and resources, we will continue to see people who have crossed over the line and who choose to kill others as well as themselves.

People are stepping forward and saying the Connecticut shooter had endured longstanding mental health issues and his mother had struggled in dealing with his behavior. Supposedly, his mom had the resources for mental health care for her son, but the average person cannot afford longterm care or even longterm therapy, for that matter.

In many communities, there are few resources! And what are available are often very expensive! And typically, the only way the state will step in is through the court system, and then these unstable kids end up in prison, where they are definitely not being given the treatment they need - plus, it is often too late by that point (they have already offended).

It really saddens me that folks will focus on the weapon du jour instead of tackling the real issue: MENTAL HEALTH.

EDITED TO ADD:

Instead, I find that all over this country, folks are trying to spread the word that MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES WERE NOT AT THE ROOT OF THIS VIOLENCE. Excuse me? I guess we are gonna hurt someone's feelings is we suggest that the same diagnosis they or their children might have could affect their thought processes to the point that they might not be able to handle anger -- or they could be come violent if they have a psychotic episode. Everyone is an individual; a diagnosis of a mental health issue can never take into account all the factors affecting any one person.

No one wants to believe that people we know and love could be capable of such violence. And most likely, the people we know and love will never commit a violent act - especially if they have been evaluated and are in treatment.

History has shown us time and again that DISORDERED PEOPLE COMMIT DISORDERED ACTS. Yes, it is only a % of folks who will become irrational or psychotic and kill others. But isn't that the point?

We need to agree, as a society, that we will make sure everyone who needs mental health evaluation and treatment gets it - b/c it IS the one person who slips through the cracks that ends up shooting John Lennon or 22 elementary school children or bombing a federal building.

http://communities.washingtontimes.c...ss-not-answer/

What is the answer? No school can be secure enough to screen out every possibility of violence. I don't know enough about CMS's policies to know if they should be improved. However, I am assuming there isn't a school in this nation that isn't reviewing how they handle security.

In the end, there is no way to prevent acts of violence, other than identifying those who are prone to such acts and getting them the assistance they need.

Last edited by brokensky; 12-17-2012 at 12:26 PM..
 
Old 12-17-2012, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Charlotte
1,764 posts, read 2,735,382 times
Reputation: 1160
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post

It isn't the gun that kills . . . it really is people that kill.

Within hours of the Connecticut shooting, a man in China killed 22 children with a KNIFE.
As far as I know, NONE of the chinese children died - they were injured. How can you say that the lack of gun control does not make a difference? In countries with strict gun regulation, the murder rate is lower overall. This holds true among states as well. Are Americans by nature more violent than people in other countries. I don't think so. What's more, if you have a gun in your house for your protection, you have a higher risk of death by firearm than if you don't have a gun. Statistically you are not safer if you own a gun.
 
Old 12-17-2012, 01:01 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 66,969,221 times
Reputation: 22369
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-burgher View Post
As far as I know, NONE of the chinese children died - they were injured. How can you say that the lack of gun control does not make a difference? In countries with strict gun regulation, the murder rate is lower overall. This holds true among states as well. Are Americans by nature more violent than people in other countries. I don't think so. What's more, if you have a gun in your house for your protection, you have a higher risk of death by firearm than if you don't have a gun. Statistically you are not safer if you own a gun.
That is kinda sad that you cherry picked my one statement about it being people who use guns to kill others as all you got from what I wrote.

I was not advocating that people don't discuss the availability of firearms. I was advocating that they examine what is behind these shootings -- and become advocates of better (and more accessible) mental health services in their communities.

Statistically, anyone working with mental health issues, and especially with suicide, knows that the availability of a firearm in the home does appear to escalate the rate of suicide amongst depressed teens. A firearm will typically be the preferred method for self harm when attempting suicide.

The mother of this young man kept guns in her home. I have advised people to never keep a gun in the home without properly securing it and that all firearms should be removed from the home if any member of the family is dealing with mental health issues (such as depression, which is linked to suicide). I myself did not keep firearms in my home while I had children living in the house with me - but then, I lived in an extremely safe area.

My point was that people will quickly call for action when it comes to controlling an object (such as a gun) but a gun is inanimate and is only "under control" when in the hands of an individual. What we need to control is access to mental health resources and services so that people are not propelled to commit acts of violence.

I am not interested in a "chicken and egg" argument here . . .which came first - violence or guns? I am interested in people getting real about how many people with real mental health issues are not receiving proper care. That is why I feel we are doing a real disservice to the community if the only discussion that comes about is concerning gun control, b/c it doesn't get to the root of these acts of violence: untreated mental health issues.


 
Old 12-17-2012, 01:10 PM
 
Location: The 12th State
22,974 posts, read 58,440,696 times
Reputation: 14917
_________________________________________

This thread has drifted from the OP
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, N.C. area
445 posts, read 678,138 times
Reputation: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
I wonder why, given the voracity of gun supporters, we don't see more perps brought down by gun toting citizens? If there are so many guns here, and so many that want to carry, why is there seldom one around when it's really needed?
Probably because guns are banned in the very places where they are needed.

The law-abiding CCW citizen respects that.

The criminal doesn't.

Concealed carry can be a real deterrent but not when a crazy knows exactly where they are banned.
 
Old 12-17-2012, 01:18 PM
 
601 posts, read 788,629 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
The national discussion should be on MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES and getting help for folks dealing with behavioral health issues. This should include a real effort to make resources available to PARENTS who have very little recourse or resources when dealing with an adolescent or older child while mental health issues.

It isn't the gun that kills . . . it really is people that kill.

Within hours of the Connecticut shooting, a man in China killed 22 children with a KNIFE.

Villager slashes 22 kids with knife at elementary school gates in China - World News

Mentally ill, irrational and/or psychotic people -- who are bent on killing others -- will find a way to do it. If they don't have a gun, it will be a knife or a bomb or stangulation or poison.

If you will remember, this is also what occurred at Virginia Tech -- a mentally ill student . . . and same with the Aurora movie theatre shooter.

Until we stop hiding mental illness in our own families (or minimizing it). . . and until we have easy to access, affordable and community supported mental health assistance and resources, we will continue to see people who have crossed over the line and who choose to kill others as well as themselves.

People are stepping forward and saying the Connecticut shooter had endured longstanding mental health issues and his mother had struggled in dealing with his behavior. Supposedly, his mom had the resources for mental health care for her son, but the average person cannot afford longterm care or even longterm therapy, for that matter.

In many communities, there are few resources! And what are available are often very expensive! And typically, the only way the state will step in is through the court system, and then these unstable kids end up in prison, where they are definitely not being given the treatment they need - plus, it is often too late by that point (they have already offended).

It really saddens me that folks will focus on the weapon du jour instead of tackling the real issue: MENTAL HEALTH.

EDITED TO ADD:

Instead, I find that all over this country, folks are trying to spread the word that MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES WERE NOT AT THE ROOT OF THIS VIOLENCE. Excuse me? I guess we are gonna hurt someone's feelings is we suggest that the same diagnosis they or their children might have could affect their thought processes to the point that they might not be able to handle anger -- or they could be come violent if they have a psychotic episode. Everyone is an individual; a diagnosis of a mental health issue can never take into account all the factors affecting any one person.

No one wants to believe that people we know and love could be capable of such violence. And most likely, the people we know and love will never commit a violent act - especially if they have been evaluated and are in treatment.

History has shown us time and again that DISORDERED PEOPLE COMMIT DISORDERED ACTS. Yes, it is only a % of folks who will become irrational or psychotic and kill others. But isn't that the point?

We need to agree, as a society, that we will make sure everyone who needs mental health evaluation and treatment gets it - b/c it IS the one person who slips through the cracks that ends up shooting John Lennon or 22 elementary school children or bombing a federal building.

The Connecticut shooting: Mental illness is not an answer, so what is? | Washington Times Communities

What is the answer? No school can be secure enough to screen out every possibility of violence. I don't know enough about CMS's policies to know if they should be improved. However, I am assuming there isn't a school in this nation that isn't reviewing how they handle security.

In the end, there is no way to prevent acts of violence, other than identifying those who are prone to such acts and getting them the assistance they need.
You make a good point. But, the reason why discussions on improving or revamping our mental health system isn't brought up, is because it will eventually lead to discussions on our general healthcare system, and most possibly socialized medicine (whether it be UHC, or a government provided public option). Nobody wants to touch this issue with a 100-foot pole.
 
Old 12-17-2012, 01:21 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 66,969,221 times
Reputation: 22369
Sunny, I don't think it has drifted off topic. The poster asked about security at CMS. I am saying - no way any school can be 100% safe and secure, as long as we have folks out there who have mental health issues that are going undiagnosed and untreated.

I don't think that is off track at all.

I work with mental healthcare agencies and behavioral healthcare providers. The budgets continue to be slashed. We are not evaluating, screening, diagnosing and treating all the folks out there who need help - and this is something that often needs to begin while children are in school. The young man who chose to kill others had displayed behaviors that should have raised a therapist's eyebrows a bit . . . yet it appears his mom chose to home school him after the school system was unable to provide resources.

This IS at the core of the discussion . . . that young man was a member of his community and at one time, a classmate of others in the community. Did the school system fail him? Did the mental health system fail him? None of us can answer that question at this point in time - at least, definitively. But if we are going to have safe schools, then we need to make sure we have safe communities . . . and that can't happen if there are disordered people who may choose to target a school b/c of their own irrational anger to that institution.

Maybe I am not making my point very well . . . b/c if I were, I think there would be no confusion about whether or not keeping a school safe should include mental health evaluations/treatment for students as well as those in the community, who may be dealing with behavioral mental health problems.
 
Old 12-17-2012, 01:23 PM
 
5,150 posts, read 6,634,017 times
Reputation: 1438
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
There is no way to remove guns from this society because the Constitution guarantees people the right to own guns and the Supreme Ct. just last year clarified that it does mean this. So that debate is now over. Any attempt to restrict gun ownership will be declared unconstitutional. It would require amending the Constitution to change this, and this isn't likely to happen.

The other option, if guns are to be in society, is to remove all restrictions on guns. (on adults) As counter-intuitive as this sounds, if a teacher or other employee at that school had a gun on them this could have ended quite differently. Gun restrictions protect criminals, not the innocent. Unfortunately this isn't likely to happen either because in this country, most adults these days are incapable of having such a discussion.

So it is what it is. One can only hope they and/or their loved ones won't get caught in a similar situation.
Yes the Supreme Court affirmed the right to own a gun even if you are not in a militia. But "any attempt to restrict gun ownership will be declared unconstitutional" is incorrect. Laws against the mentally ill purchasing weapons and whether you can carry a gun into a government building (if there's a contrary law) still exist. Of course the government building exception is a use restriction not an ownership restriction but does that mean the states can restrict use totally? If it did then what use would a right to own be? The answer is "no" at least for in the home. Restrictions outside the home are iffy and a new case is headed to the SCOTUS because there are split decisions in federal appellate courts.

I imagine assault weapons will end up at the court too eventually though that's not on the radar because there is no current law. Of course the democrats want to change that.
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