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Old 02-04-2013, 12:55 PM
 
Location: State of Being
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We have a mass transit plan. It is called a bus system.

We need to finish the light rail system.

Of course, we need to finish 485, too . . .

What we don't need is a streetcar that meets the needs of a few hundred folks at a premium cost.

The truth is - I don't see where we are going to get the money for ANY of these projects.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GCharlotte View Post
Is it not still part of the 2030 plan? Is it unfunded versus canceled?
The MTC voted in 2009 to remove the street car project from the plan. CATS is no longer working on it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post

Why would you want to pay hundreds of millions of dollars more for a rail system that will accomplish the same goals, metrics, speeds, and capacity as streetcar will accomplish?
Then why would you spend 1/2 a billion dollars more for a streetcar system that doesn't accomplish anything more than modern buses? It's exactly the same logic. It's valid logic BTW. This is why the streetcar project in Charlotte will not pass the Federal government's cost effectiveness requirements for funding.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,755 posts, read 3,276,290 times
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Originally Posted by frewroad View Post
Then why would you spend 1/2 a billion dollars more for a streetcar system that doesn't accomplish anything more than modern buses? It's exactly the same logic. It's valid logic BTW. This is why the streetcar project in Charlotte will not pass the Federal government's cost effectiveness requirements for funding.

Why would you spend hundreds of millions of dollars more on a light rail on this same exact route when streetcar accomplishes the same goals.


Obviously many people feel light rail would work better on this route. They think Mr. Rogers will be carrying them around town. Which is 100% false and was never even considered.



But then again; what does the Blue line do that buses can't? Nothing. We could've had a park and ride at 485 with a bus station that hauled people all day long back in forth in their very own bus lane with Right of way.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
But then again; what does the Blue line do that buses can't? Nothing.
You are incorrect. All requests for transit funding from the Federal government require the proposal to be compared to handling the same transit traffic with buses. One of the tests for cost effectiveness is this difference. The difference has to be great enough in order to justify the high initial cost.

Therefore, in order for the Blue Line to have received federal funding, they have already proven what you say doesn't exist. Now in regards to the streetcar, it doesn't work and this is why CATS removed it from the plan.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,898 posts, read 27,173,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
We're discussing the streetcar expansion. Which was NEVER intended to be ran with trolleys. It's not a pipe dream or we wouldn't be discussing it. I'm on my smart phone so it's really hard for me to pull up sources which are plentiful... The streetcar expansion is what McCrory is threatening. To discuss trolleys from a time when it was illegal for blacks and whites to marry to today when urban living is on he rise, gas prices are soaring, population growth, etc. is off topic to McCrory threatening our streetcar expansion money (which is different than the 2 mile started project funded by DC which will be ran with trolleys which seems to be confusing some)


I'm under the assumption you believe the light rail would be more cost effective than streetcar (which will NOT be ran with trolleys and was never intended to; ever)

- Light Rail would cost hundreds of millions of dollars more

- Light Rail would not transfer people any faster to be worth the cost or noticeable than streetcar. The center of the line will be at the transit center. From there it will span nearly 5 miles to the east and 5 miles to the west. The distance between the stops are much shorter than the average light rail stop by large margins (outside of uptown). Shorter stops means you can't reach top speeds (for example; how fast is light rail between the bobcats arena stop and 7th street?). Streetcar will be designed to coincide with street lights. So speed would be the same on this route.

- Lightrail would not generate anymore capacity than streetcar on this route. Light rail is designed for the suburbs to commute into urban areas. Streetcar is designed to carry people around the city; not the entire region. And streetcar trams can have multiple rail vehicles to carry as much capacity as light rail would ever need to carry for the corridor.



Why would you want to pay hundreds of millions of dollars more for a rail system that will accomplish the same goals, metrics, speeds, and capacity as streetcar will accomplish?

I'm under the assumption you'd be for putting commuter trains on the lynx blue line because it can go faster and hold more people....
You do understand that Art Pope & Wayne King are pulling the strings, don't you?

McCrory is goading Foxx. If McCrory pulls the state funding because Foxx is acting out, the federal funds go away too.

Bev had regional money diverted to Charlotte for 485. Part of that money came from Kings Mountain. Guess where Wayne King lives?

McCrory was wrong for handling this this way. Foxx is wrong for throwing a public tantrum. They are both wrong & need to publicly apologize.

The city owns 3 trolleys. There is no money for streetcars. There's a reason that this is being referred to as trolley lines.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,755 posts, read 3,276,290 times
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RL]
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
You do understand that Art Pope & Wayne King are pulling the strings, don't you?

McCrory is goading Foxx. If McCrory pulls the state funding because Foxx is acting out, the federal funds go away too.

Bev had regional money diverted to Charlotte for 485. Part of that money came from Kings Mountain. Guess where Wayne King lives?

McCrory was wrong for handling this this way. Foxx is wrong for throwing a public tantrum. They are both wrong & need to publicly apologize.

The city owns 3 trolleys. There is no money for streetcars. There's a reason that this is being referred to as trolley lines.
But we're talking about the expansion which will not be run with trolleys. The trolley section is fully funded and under construction....

The part being held hostage by McCrory would not be ran with trolleys. Especially only 3 trolleys!. The 3 trolleys are for the 1.5 mile starter project.


This expansion which we are discussing and what Foxx and McCrory have their panties in a wad over will not be ran with 3 trolleys... They will be used with modern streetcars....
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,898 posts, read 27,173,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
RL]

But we're talking about the expansion which will not be run with trolleys. The trolley section is fully funded and under construction....

The part being held hostage by McCrory would not be ran with trolleys. Especially only 3 trolleys!. The 3 trolleys are for the 1.5 mile starter project.


This expansion which we are discussing and what Foxx and McCrory have their panties in a wad over will not be ran with 3 trolleys... They will be used with modern streetcars....
I don't care what it will be run with. There's no money for it & if Foxx persists believe me, McCrory is going to pull money for the blue line. I think that Charlotte needs that extention. In spite of the fact that some of that money would find its way to Kings Mountain, I think that Charlotte needs that & as the primary city in the area, it should get it.

It's simple. The feds like rail & have for a very long time. They are not interested in streetcars & trolleys & won't fund it. There's no money for anything other than light rail. Fox needs to wake up. If he jacks up property taxes by 8% he will see what other cities have seen. . .an exudus of midddle class people & businesses.

It's already happening to a degree. Every business that has come into Kings Mountain recently could have gone into Charlotte. That's a couple of billion dollars in investments that opted for cheaper taxes.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,755 posts, read 3,276,290 times
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Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I don't care what it will be run with. There's no money for it & if Foxx persists believe me, McCrory is going to pull money for the blue line. I think that Charlotte needs that extention. In spite of the fact that some of that money would find its way to Kings Mountain, I think that Charlotte needs that & as the primary city in the area, it should get it.

It's simple. The feds like rail & have for a very long time. They are not interested in streetcars & trolleys & won't fund it. There's no money for anything other than light rail. Fox needs to wake up. If he jacks up property taxes by 8% he will see what other cities have seen. . .an exudus of midddle class people & businesses.

It's already happening to a degree. Every business that has come into Kings Mountain recently could have gone into Charlotte. That's a couple of billion dollars in investments that opted for cheaper taxes.

But it's very important you know what it will be ran with. That's a huge detail. Especially considering the logic of using a light rail vs. streetcar on the east/west corridor.


All 3 (Red line, Blue Line, East/West Line) will get funding soon. There would be severe political consequences for cutting our light rail funding.


In fact... I believe Foxx is now more than ever eager to push streetcar judging from his state of the city address today.

(kind of funny looking back on McCrory and the bobcats arena)
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:33 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,898 posts, read 27,173,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
But it's very important you know what it will be ran with. That's a huge detail. Especially considering the logic of using a light rail vs. streetcar on the east/west corridor.


All 3 (Red line, Blue Line, East/West Line) will get funding soon. There would be severe political consequences for cutting our light rail funding.


In fact... I believe Foxx is now more than ever eager to push streetcar judging from his state of the city address today.

(kind of funny looking back on McCrory and the bobcats arena)
The red line is stymied because Iredell doesn't want it.

I don't care if Foxx is asking for money to issue flying broomsticks to everyone in Charlotte. McCrory issued a 3rd party warning that he will pull the state funding for the blue line. Trust me, he will, if Foxx doesn't cease & desist. If Foxx loses that money he will have a Democratic challenger in the next election. If he gets through that, his Republican challenger will beat him on the money loss. The ad campaign will be ugly.

Right now Art Pope & Wayne Kings are holding a fistful of IOUs that they will be looking to cash in. RPO funding for several small projects were cut for Kings Mountain to shift money for 485. Believe me, if Foxx keeps it up, McCrory will pull the state money. State money can always be shifted around because the Republicans have control of everything.

Foxx needs to shut up, take the state & federal money, & wait out McCrory, who appears to be on a course to tick off people faster & in larger numbers than Bev. I still think that having light rail forming an x first, followed by streetcars or trolleys for infill, is the way to go. This is a 2 generation project. Having a good solid rail base for all directions means that portion will be built first & on the rare occasion that federal funds are available, that will help the city.

I don't care if they want to call it tram, trolley, or streetcar Tram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , it's a bad idea when there are no federal funds available for it, especially if it can cause the loss of money for light rail. I've had to navigate with trolley tracks & it's no thrill, especially as they age.
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