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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485
I wasn't aware trolleys would be Used on the extension line being discussed. Just on the current fully funded under construction start segment which will run from Presby to Light Rail.
The streetcar is made for inner-city commute. It would hold just as much as a light rail and not go any slower than light rail would on the same proposed route.
It's like saying we should have commuter rail operating on the current blue line or light rail on the red line. They all serve different purposes.
Light rail Brings people INTO center city, streetcar moves people AROUND the city. Do you know how fast Light rail "barrels" through uptown? Not very fast. Do you know much closer the blue line stops in uptown are versus the initial stops starting boat the 485 station?
Streetcar will connect mass transit (Transportation center, Lynx Blue Line, Amtrak, Lynx Red line, Gateway station), Presbyterian hospital, CPCC, Johnson and Wales, JCS University, North Eastern University, Charlotte School of Law, Epicenter, Rosa Parks transit, Midtown/Elizabeth, Memorial stadium, Charlotte Knights, Bank of America Headquarters, Trade/Tryon, Charlotte Bobcats arena, Government district, gateway village, east/west inner coty charlotte, etc. all within a few blocks from this line.
The signals can be timed and have censors for streetcar, it's much much much more cost effective and just as efficient to had streetcar vs. light rail on this route. The epicenter of this route wil be trade and Tryon. It will only radiate out 5 miles in each direction from uptown.... Do we really need high speeds for frequent stops that is only a few miles outside of uptown? No. Do we need high speed for people connecting to the blue line from at gateway station to the CTC/blue line?
Light rail wouldn't go any faster in uptown! And the cost aren't worth it for the few miles it is out of uptown
Have you lived or worked where multiple modes of mass transit, including trolleys, are used? Light rail & heavy rail are both classified as rapid transit. Trolleys are not. Charlotte is not planning to run big modern trolleys.
For those who don't know what we're discussing; the funding of a 10 mile modern streetcar line like the one pictured above. Our streetcar along with the one in Portland doesn't always have to stay on a road. Ours will even cut through a park... It's designed with common sense in mind.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485
Wrong; trolleys are only going to be used on the 2 mile or so starter project. In fact; if we get the funding approved for the extension which is being discussed; they wouldn't even have to use a trolley... Ever on this line.
And as far as fender benders go. Tell me how many times has light rail slammed into a car before and caused delays? The same amount of times fender benders will disrupt streetcar. It's been designed with common sense that fender benders could disrupt streetcar.
If you get hit on a street with trolley tracks & the tracks are effected (possibly blocked by debris), the trolley has to stop. CATS has no plan for your future accident.
For those who don't know what we're discussing; the funding of a 10 mile modern streetcar line like the one pictured above. Our streetcar along with the one in Portland doesn't always have to stay on a road. Ours will even cut through a park... It's designed with common sense in mind......It will NOT be a trolley...
That was the CATS project that got canceled. This IS NOT what Foxx is proposing. If you have a proposal that says otherwise then please provide it.
Portland's streetcar works (somewhat) because the city invoked a rather draconian urban development zone for the area. Development is allowed inside, forbidden outside. Charlotte has nothing like this, and because of it no where near the densities to make that kind of trolley cost effective here. When Portland is put up as an example, that part of it is always left out. Common sense dictates the two must go together.
That was the CATS project that got canceled. This IS NOT what Foxx is proposing. If you have a proposal that says otherwise then please provide it.
Portland's streetcar works (somewhat) because the city invoked a rather draconian urban development zone for the area. Development is allowed inside, forbidden outside. Charlotte has nothing like this, and because of it no where near the densities to make that kind of trolley cost effective here. When Portland is put up as an example, that part of it is always left out. Common sense dictates the two must go together.
But a Light Rail is cost effective? No it's not. It won't be anymore effective than streetcar. Light rail will cost 100's of millions of dollars more (and federal dollars are hard to come by these days)
It won't hold anymore people than light rail will because of where it's located. Light rail starts at 485 in pineville and was supposed to stop at 485 in the north. Lots of suburbanite use it to come into the city... That's why it has a larger ridership. It's 20 miles long meant to carry people into uptown (while encouraging growth along the tracks)....
Streetcar isn't meant for people to park their cars and ride with Mr. Rogers to uptown from Huntersville.
Of you disagree with a rail line serving this route; fine. But let's not pretend a much much more expensive rail which will not go any faster or carry anymore people (supply and demand - people from the entire metro will not be parking to ride it solely to get to uptown) than streetcar would.
Again; tell me how fast light rail barrels through uptown... And how short the stops are for uptown blue line vs. towards 485 station? Look how short the stops are for the streetcar. Look how many miles of how many miles the streetcar is out of uptown uninterrupted? A couples miles east of uptown and a few west out of uptown.
Now how much would it cost ME (and thousands of other residents who will never use it) so HOW MANY PEOPLE can use a Streetcar daily?
Without even knowing the answer, I know I won't like it.
We can't repair potholes and ancient water lines fast enough . . . But Mayor Foxx is concentrating on a Streetcar so a few hundred of his constituents, his peeps, can get around easier.
Lordy, have mercy on my car's front end alignment.
PS > Why aren't there bus stops all over uptown? Oh wait! There ARE!!!
PSS> I have an idea. Horse drawn carriages. We won't have to even lay line. And steaming horse poo is so charming -- and GREEN. That's part of the Mayor's Big Plan - "go green." He ought to love that idea.
Last edited by brokensky; 02-04-2013 at 12:31 PM..
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485
For those who don't know what we're discussing; the funding of a 10 mile modern streetcar line like the one pictured above. Our streetcar along with the one in Portland doesn't always have to stay on a road. Ours will even cut through a park... It's designed with common sense in mind.
It will NOT be a trolley...
The city bought 3 trolley cars to run on it, not street cars. Here's a listing of the former trolley systems in NC. If they were such a good idea, why were they all ripped out & replaced with buses. Guide to Past & Present Traction Systems in North Carolina Other cities have ripped out trolley tracks.
Foxx is working on a pipedream. The city neads to submit new plans to include the east & west. In the mean time, he should shut up, take the light rail money, & understand that Bev is gone. At the same time, McCrory & Foxx need to publicly apologize to each other.
The city bought 3 trolley cars to run on it, not street cars. Here's a listing of the former trolley systems in NC. If they were such a good idea, why were they all ripped out & replaced with buses. Guide to Past & Present Traction Systems in North Carolina Other cities have ripped out trolley tracks.
Foxx is working on a pipedream. The city neads to submit new plans to include the east & west. In the mean time, he should shut up, take the light rail money, & understand that Bev is gone. At the same time, McCrory & Foxx need to publicly apologize to each other.
We're discussing the streetcar expansion. Which was NEVER intended to be ran with trolleys. It's not a pipe dream or we wouldn't be discussing it. I'm on my smart phone so it's really hard for me to pull up sources which are plentiful... The streetcar expansion is what McCrory is threatening. To discuss trolleys from a time when it was illegal for blacks and whites to marry to today when urban living is on he rise, gas prices are soaring, population growth, etc. is off topic to McCrory threatening our streetcar expansion money (which is different than the 2 mile started project funded by DC which will be ran with trolleys which seems to be confusing some)
I'm under the assumption you believe the light rail would be more cost effective than streetcar (which will NOT be ran with trolleys and was never intended to; ever)
- Light Rail would cost hundreds of millions of dollars more
- Light Rail would not transfer people any faster to be worth the cost or noticeable than streetcar. The center of the line will be at the transit center. From there it will span nearly 5 miles to the east and 5 miles to the west. The distance between the stops are much shorter than the average light rail stop by large margins (outside of uptown). Shorter stops means you can't reach top speeds (for example; how fast is light rail between the bobcats arena stop and 7th street?). Streetcar will be designed to coincide with street lights. So speed would be the same on this route.
- Lightrail would not generate anymore capacity than streetcar on this route. Light rail is designed for the suburbs to commute into urban areas. Streetcar is designed to carry people around the city; not the entire region. And streetcar trams can have multiple rail vehicles to carry as much capacity as light rail would ever need to carry for the corridor.
Why would you want to pay hundreds of millions of dollars more for a rail system that will accomplish the same goals, metrics, speeds, and capacity as streetcar will accomplish?
I'm under the assumption you'd be for putting commuter trains on the lynx blue line because it can go faster and hold more people....
That was the CATS project that got canceled. This IS NOT what Foxx is proposing. If you have a proposal that says otherwise then please provide it.
Portland's streetcar works (somewhat) because the city invoked a rather draconian urban development zone for the area. Development is allowed inside, forbidden outside. Charlotte has nothing like this, and because of it no where near the densities to make that kind of trolley cost effective here. When Portland is put up as an example, that part of it is always left out. Common sense dictates the two must go together.
Is it not still part of the 2030 plan? Is it unfunded versus canceled?
Found a cool PDF that shows what the total 2030 wants are:
But a Light Rail is cost effective? No it's not. It won't be anymore effective than streetcar. Light rail will cost 100's of millions of dollars more (and federal dollars are hard to come by these days)
According to the federal government's criteria for determining cost effectiveness, the Blue Line and the Blue Line extension meet their definition for being cost effective.
I'm not sure why you question this and incorrectly claim that it's not. It is. It's a matter of public record.
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