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That's the point. And it's quite unfortunate that this was the mindset at the time--not just in Charlotte, but everywhere.
I never said or even implied that Charlotte had the historic stock of the most historic cities in the South, or even of a sizable city in the pre-WWII period like Atlanta. I even specifically said that Atlanta had more historic buildings because it was larger earlier in its history than Charlotte was. But there was definitely enough there that, had more of it been preserved, the nature and character of Uptown would be quite different today and I suspect that Uptown would have had a much better street-level retail presence than it does now. When you get a chance, check out this book; it's pretty informative concerning what Charlotte had and what was lost: Charlotte (Then and Now: North Carolina): Don Schick: 9780738542287: Amazon.com: Books
Oh I agree, perserving some of those buildings or allowing them to maintain their original purpose/facade on Tryon St. would have added some historical character and livened up the street scene in to the city, much like Fayetteville St. in Raleigh. However, relatively speaking, there wasn't a ton of buildings there to begin with plus some of the buildings still exist, just a different facade and/or overshadowed by the larger and taller modern structures. Let's not forget, the Charlestons of the world are unique, many cities with those vintage structures have difficulty upgrading for modern usage thus remain a bit of problem or eyesore...there a few that sit idle in uptown as well.
Damn Atlanta, that traffic madness ultimately makes one do a re-route, much like the discussion of this thread.
Oh I agree, perserving some of those buildings or allowing them to maintain their original purpose/facade on Tryon St. would have added some historical character and livened up the street scene in to the city, much like Fayetteville St. in Raleigh. However, relatively speaking, there wasn't a ton of buildings there to begin with plus some of the buildings still exist, just a different facade and/or overshadowed by the larger and taller modern structures. Let's not forget, the Charlestons of the world are unique, many cities with those vintage structures have difficulty upgrading for modern usage thus remain a bit of problem or eyesore...there a few that sit idle in uptown as well.
Damn Atlanta, that traffic madness ultimately makes one do a re-route, much like the discussion of this thread.
Let's not even mention Charleston. It muddies the waters too much and I never brought it up as a point of comparison because it would be patently unfair. The bottom line is that even with what Charlotte did have, which wasn't necessarily a whole lot, it was a mistake to let so much of that go. You probably wouldn't get the common refrain that Uptown is "sterile" if that wasn't the case.
As far as any difficulties involved with upgrading historic buildings for modern use, that tends to be the exception rather than the norm. Overcoming such challenges is usually a matter of making it a priority and getting it done. Examples abound when it comes to this.
Let's not even mention Charleston. It muddies the waters too much and I never brought it up as a point of comparison because it would be patently unfair. The bottom line is that even with what Charlotte did have, which wasn't necessarily a whole lot, it was a mistake to let so much of that go. You probably wouldn't get the common refrain that Uptown is "sterile" if that wasn't the case.
As far as any difficulties involved with upgrading historic buildings for modern use, that tends to be the exception rather than the norm. Overcoming such challenges is usually a matter of making it a priority and getting it done. Examples abound when it comes to this.
Fair enough and all valid points. I intentionally try to mask out what certain sections of Tryon St. would resemble today if not for the shortsightness of a few greedy folk, for urbanites and historians, it's too painful to imagine in an already beautiful downtown.
Why all the pictures and obsession?...it isn't necessary. I've stated it 10x in this thread, Charlotte's advantage is the era in which their growth spurt will occur from 2 mill MSA to 4 mill MSA - basically when urbanism is encouraged with many city leaders being much more astitute, engaged and proactive about controlling sprawl. Unfortunately for Atlanta, that spurt occured during an era when many downtown or central core areas were fleeced due the advent of the large enclosed mall and big box stores. That said, Atlanta managed to pull off heavy rail but at this point in the process, the traffic situation is incorrectable and Charlotte has a narrow window of opportunity to offset many of problems plaguing Atlanta. However, no one is denying the fact that Atlanta isn't making progress towards urban pockets which you seem overly obsessed with communicating in this thread....we GET IT....it's larger challenge at this point, but not impossible.
IMO, all indicators show Charlotte's traffic issues will ultimately mirror Atlantas down the road, although it has an opportunity to significantly provide a better planned urban environment than current day Atlanta....and in some areas is doing just that.
So, calm the fk down....
Dude Im good.,I was not even talking to you.So what are you in the Koolaid for?Its my right to show pics.Why would YOU be so upset about that?
Its funny how you get indignant when I respond to all these remarks from Charlotte posters regarding what they think they incorrectly know about Atanta. Obviously some of YOU do not get it.Hence the pics.
Where were you when those statements were made?But im the problem.This is a forum so I wont say what I suggest you go could do.
You are the one making derogatory directives.
Its not a "Suggestion" about Atlanta having 5 core counties.Its fact.This is not even debatable.If you lived in Atlanta you would know this is fact.
Most people dont even realize that 10% of the city of Atlanta is in Dekalb County.A small unincorporated portion is in Clayton County where the Airport is.
You can call them 5 core counties if you want, but still, that just shows how much more sprawl Atlanta has. I think frewroad was just comparing Fulton to Mecklenburg because they have a similar land area. But looking at Fulton, a good portion of that is probably in the southwestern portion which is not close to either downtown or the area's many interstates leading downtown. Most of what I know about Atlanta (which I admit isn't a whole lot) is from my travels there for work where I do go all throughout the metro, but mainly just going to grocery stores. The lack of grocery stores in the area between 70 and Fulton Parkway leads me to believe that there really are not many people living in that area (correct me if I'm wrong), for good reason as it is almost 30 miles to downtown and doesn't appear to have a good route to get there. If this is the case I would imagine this also greatly contributes to one of the previous points made about Mecklenburg having surpassed Fulton in population density.
So because Dekalb actually contains part of the city of Atlanta and the western portion is 2 miles from downtown, I think you'd have to include that when trying to make a somewhat apples to apples comparison to Mecklenburg, as those 2 counties comprise the majority of what is inside 285, as Mecklenburg comprises everything within 485. For example,
All places within either Fulton or Dekalb:
Downtown to Alpharetta to the north: ~26 miles
Downtown to the intersection of 400/285 to the north: ~14 miles
Downtown to the intersection of 20/285 to the west: ~8 miles
Downtown to Hapeville (just inside 285 to the south): ~8 miles
Downtown to the Northwestern limit of Fulton just before the intersection of 285/75: ~10 miles
Downtown to the intersection of 285/85 to the northeast: ~15 miles
Downtown to the eastern part of 285: ~10 miles
Downtown to Stone Mountain (outside 285): ~16 miles
Downtown to Lithonia (outside 285): ~17 miles
All places within Mecklenburg:
Uptown to Davidson to the north: ~21 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 77/485 to the north: ~10 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 85/485 to the west: ~8 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 77/485 to the southwest: ~10 miles
Uptown to the interstection of 16/485 to the northwest: ~8 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 485/85 to the northeast: ~10 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 74/485 to the southeast: ~12 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 485 and Albemarle Rd to the east: ~12 miles
Uptown to Lake Wylie before getting to SC: ~15 miles
Uptown to Ballantyne (just outside 485 to the south): ~13 miles
Those mileage numbers look pretty similar, with much of 285/485 being within about 10 miles from downtown/uptown for the most part, and both metros having some areas outside 285/485 but within what I would call the core counties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle
Why all the pictures and obsession?...it isn't necessary. I've stated it 10x in this thread, Charlotte's advantage is the era in which their growth spurt will occur from 2 mill MSA to 4 mill MSA - basically when urbanism is encouraged with many city leaders being much more astitute, engaged and proactive about controlling sprawl. Unfortunately for Atlanta, that spurt occured during an era when many downtown or central core areas were fleeced due the advent of the large enclosed mall and big box stores. That said, Atlanta managed to pull off heavy rail but at this point in the process, the traffic situation is incorrectable and Charlotte has a narrow window of opportunity to offset many of problems plaguing Atlanta. However, no one is denying the fact that Atlanta isn't making progress towards urban pockets which you seem overly obsessed with communicating in this thread....we GET IT....it's larger challenge at this point, but not impossible.
IMO, all indicators show Charlotte's traffic issues will ultimately mirror Atlantas down the road, although it has an opportunity to significantly provide a better planned urban environment than current day Atlanta....and in some areas is doing just that.
Who's to say that Charlotte wanted to keep it's historic buildings?
See what I mean.Every remark is a challenge.You can't talk to people from Charlotte in realistic terms.
Why on earth would you NOT want to have more historic preservation?EVERY great city in the world pays homage to its architectural past.The amount of detail and cost is just to achieve what was done back then is rare.Keeping a building like the Fox Theater:
Moderator cut: post links to copyrighted pictures Fox Theater Atlanta: a Majestic Monument of MusicThe Coolist
FannPop
Imagine if this building or other treasures of Charlotte were still around:
Moderator cut: post links to copyrighted pictures http://cmhpf.org/MASONIC.JPGGone not Forgotten Structures of Mecklenburg County
It adds to the charm and tells the story of the past as well as the future.
Last edited by SunnyKayak; 02-24-2013 at 07:55 PM..
You can call them 5 core counties if you want, but still, that just shows how much more sprawl Atlanta has. I think frewroad was just comparing Fulton to Mecklenburg because they have a similar land area. But looking at Fulton, a good portion of that is probably in the southwestern portion which is not close to either downtown or the area's many interstates leading downtown. Most of what I know about Atlanta (which I admit isn't a whole lot) is from my travels there for work where I do go all throughout the metro, but mainly just going to grocery stores. The lack of grocery stores in the area between 70 and Fulton Parkway leads me to believe that there really are not many people living in that area (correct me if I'm wrong), for good reason as it is almost 30 miles to downtown and doesn't appear to have a good route to get there. If this is the case I would imagine this also greatly contributes to one of the previous points made about Mecklenburg having surpassed Fulton in population density.
So because Dekalb actually contains part of the city of Atlanta and the western portion is 2 miles from downtown, I think you'd have to include that when trying to make a somewhat apples to apples comparison to Mecklenburg, as those 2 counties comprise the majority of what is inside 285, as Mecklenburg comprises everything within 485. For example,
All places within either Fulton or Dekalb:
Downtown to Alpharetta to the north: ~26 miles
Downtown to the intersection of 400/285 to the north: ~14 miles
Downtown to the intersection of 20/285 to the west: ~8 miles
Downtown to Hapeville (just inside 285 to the south): ~8 miles
Downtown to the Northwestern limit of Fulton just before the intersection of 285/75: ~10 miles
Downtown to the intersection of 285/85 to the northeast: ~15 miles
Downtown to the eastern part of 285: ~10 miles
Downtown to Stone Mountain (outside 285): ~16 miles
Downtown to Lithonia (outside 285): ~17 miles
All places within Mecklenburg:
Uptown to Davidson to the north: ~21 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 77/485 to the north: ~10 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 85/485 to the west: ~8 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 77/485 to the southwest: ~10 miles
Uptown to the interstection of 16/485 to the northwest: ~8 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 485/85 to the northeast: ~10 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 74/485 to the southeast: ~12 miles
Uptown to the intersection of 485 and Albemarle Rd to the east: ~12 miles
Uptown to Lake Wylie before getting to SC: ~15 miles
Uptown to Ballantyne (just outside 485 to the south): ~13 miles
Those mileage numbers look pretty similar, with much of 285/485 being within about 10 miles from downtown/uptown for the most part, and both metros having some areas outside 285/485 but within what I would call the core counties.
^^This x100
Quote:
How many is debatable, as I disagree with the Atlanta forumers saying it is 5 (which in itself suggests that Atlanta's sprawl is worse), but they have one other county that is only 2 miles from downtown.
Thats what you stated.I was correcting you as you were incorrect about what you said.Why is this an issue?
The % core counties are the areas in which are defined that way because that is the greater urbanized areas as compaired with the 28 county medium.
Your breakdown is irrelevant.The urbanized area of those 5 core counties are MUCH more densely populated than using the entire MSA urban area than what Charlotte is.Even using the entire area MSA urbanized area covered is MUCH denser than Charlotte by.
Yes Atlanta sprals but that sprawl has slowed considerably as the areas within that sprawl has constantly densified over the years.People are not only moving more ack into the city,they are also moving CLOSER to the city.That's due to better local and regional planning.The ARC purpose is to study and help funds.those types of planning
Thats what you stated.I was correcting you as you were incorrect about what you said.Why is this an issue?
The % core counties are the areas in which are defined that way because that is the greater urbanized areas as compaired with the 28 county medium.
Your breakdown is irrelevant.The urbanized area of those 5 core counties are MUCH more densely populated than using the entire MSA urban area than what Charlotte is.Even using the entire area MSA urbanized area covered is MUCH denser than Charlotte by.
Yes Atlanta sprals but that sprawl has slowed considerably as the areas within that sprawl has constantly densified over the years.People are not only moving more ack into the city,they are also moving CLOSER to the city.That's due to better local and regional planning.The ARC purpose is to study and help funds.those types of planning
And again, if there really are 5 core counties, that just shows how bad the sprawl is. I was simply trying to make a somewhat apples to apples comparison of which counties contained the areas inside the beltways.
So now you are bragging that the sprawl itself is getting more dense? How is that going to make traffic any better?
And once again, this thread was not supposed to be about what Atlanta is doing now, which is basically all you have posted about, it is about what Charlotte is doing now or can do in the future to prevent what already happened in Atlanta. Sure, it's nice that Atlanta is reversing the trend, but it's basically irrelevant to the topic. The only way it relates is to the point that both Charlotte and Atlanta are two of many cities across the country to encourage city living, it just so happened that for Charlotte there is still a lot of room to grow but for Atlanta most of the damage has already been done.
And again, if there really are 5 core counties, that just shows how bad the sprawl is. I was simply trying to make a somewhat apples to apples comparison of which counties contained the areas inside the beltways.
So now you are bragging that the sprawl itself is getting more dense? How is that going to make traffic any better?
And once again, this thread was not supposed to be about what Atlanta is doing now, which is basically all you have posted about, it is about what Charlotte is doing now or can do in the future to prevent what already happened in Atlanta. Sure, it's nice that Atlanta is reversing the trend, but it's basically irrelevant to the topic. The only way it relates is to the point that both Charlotte and Atlanta are two of many cities across the country to encourage city living, it just so happened that for Charlotte there is still a lot of room to grow but for Atlanta most of the damage has already been done.
Lets start over. Im not "bragging" about anything. Im so I apologize if I have come off as a Charlotte hater.I do not.Nor was that my intentgion.
It is my intention to be realistic.
Sprawl is apart of life in Atlanta. That's just a fact.Also a fact is the Sprawl is being corrected by urban density projects across the Metro region.
The 5 core counties are denoted that way due to the history of how the closer areas tended to densify firs,t than the father out areas.That is a good thing.Moreso than going further out.
I don't see that happening in the closer areas of Charlotte even though its a much smaller area. Apparently some have agreed based on their statements.I'm not saying I know for sure but no one has proved thats incorrect.
"Damage" can be reversed in most cases.Or at least it can be softened.
Quote:
Out of necessity comes invention and innovation
.This is the case of Atlanta.
It does not matter when or how damage was done or whether you are starting from scratch if the corrections or courses of action are not large enough.Do YOU think they are large enough?
Why can't Charlotte do a BeltLine?Why cannot Charlotte do an Atlantic Station?
No I don't mean those exact things but things that are also innovative and diagnose how people will want to live in its city in the futire?Rail of course is a start but other cities have rail too.Some will have them in the near future also.
No matter how much rail you have traffic will be an issue.D.C has the worst traffic and it has a much better system than Atlanta
And again, if there really are 5 core counties, that just shows how bad the sprawl is. I was simply trying to make a somewhat apples to apples comparison of which counties contained the areas inside the beltways.
So now you are bragging that the sprawl itself is getting more dense? How is that going to make traffic any better?
And once again, this thread was not supposed to be about what Atlanta is doing now, which is basically all you have posted about, it is about what Charlotte is doing now or can do in the future to prevent what already happened in Atlanta. Sure, it's nice that Atlanta is reversing the trend, but it's basically irrelevant to the topic. The only way it relates is to the point that both Charlotte and Atlanta are two of many cities across the country to encourage city living, it just so happened that for Charlotte there is still a lot of room to grow but for Atlanta most of the damage has already been done.
What do you mean by "damage"? If you're referring to sprawl, of course Atlanta has a lot more and both cities will continue sprawling. However, the advantage Charlotte has is that urban development is the trend today and is occurring at an earlier point in Charlotte's development history than Atlanta's. But on the flip side, because Atlanta developed earlier, it has more basic infrastructure to work with in terms of infill and densification.
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FannPop
