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Old 10-28-2013, 09:28 AM
 
Location: North of Hell, South of Heaven.
310 posts, read 590,523 times
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While I disagree with what Calvary is doing, the Liberty-minded individual inside me demands I be consistent and respect their right to freely associate or not associate with whomever they please.

Other people are free to be as ignorant or abhorrent in their views as they please, and this freedom naturally extends to private and religious associations. I would be sorely disappointed if this turned into a try to tear down Calvary and attack thread, rather than a thread detailing their decision and (most) of our decisions to not attend or support their organization.

Freedom cuts both ways. That's a good thing.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:15 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,004,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattman704 View Post
While I disagree with what Calvary is doing, the Liberty-minded individual inside me demands I be consistent and respect their right to freely associate or not associate with whomever they please.

Other people are free to be as ignorant or abhorrent in their views as they please, and this freedom naturally extends to private and religious associations. I would be sorely disappointed if this turned into a try to tear down Calvary and attack thread, rather than a thread detailing their decision and (most) of our decisions to not attend or support their organization.

Freedom cuts both ways. That's a good thing.
Excellent point, Mattman! People are free to have their own beliefs, as well as worship where they choose.

It is the appearance of public condemnation about the Boy Scout organization through refusing to allow them access to this particular church that feels unfair . . . since it isn't just an organization they are refusing to support . . . that organization is made up of children who live in the community served by Calvary. So it feels like a condemnation of all those children.

However, as you said, it is certainly their right to choose what organizations they will support and definitely their right to believe as they believe.

Last edited by brokensky; 10-28-2013 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:20 PM
 
Location: S. Charlotte
1,511 posts, read 2,874,650 times
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Hate to be cynical, but I'm kind of waiting for the Catholic Church to jump on this bandwagon. I'm really, really hoping I'm wrong about this.

I went through 12 years of Catholic education, and I know several kids who were gay and just not out. None of the clergy discriminated against them as far as I was aware. But that was long ago and only one specific experience (my perception).

Since St. Matt's recently dropped out of the Thanksgiving multi religion service b/c of the openly gay music director I just don't know what to expect.

My youngest son attended several years of preschool at Calvary. I am sad about their decision b/c I worry about the kids who are gay but maybe too young and unaware and not out and how they and their families might feel about this.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:35 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,004,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagomichauds View Post
Hate to be cynical, but I'm kind of waiting for the Catholic Church to jump on this bandwagon. I'm really, really hoping I'm wrong about this.

I went through 12 years of Catholic education, and I know several kids who were gay and just not out. None of the clergy discriminated against them as far as I was aware. But that was long ago and only one specific experience (my perception).

Since St. Matt's recently dropped out of the Thanksgiving multi religion service b/c of the openly gay music director I just don't know what to expect.

My youngest son attended several years of preschool at Calvary. I am sad about their decision b/c I worry about the kids who are gay but maybe too young and unaware and not out and how they and their families might feel about this.
Those children are the very ones I am concerned about, as well.

I didn't know about St. Matt's dropping out of the ecumenical service b/c of a gay music director. Dear me. As a liturgical organist who knows other music directors and organists, it would be disingenuous, indeed, for any church denomination to act like they haven't had a gay music director or organist providing leadership in their congregations over the years. . . since I was a child, there have been folks that most people realized were gay leading music programs all over the nation. And for that matter, how many gay priests have been beloved by congregations for CENTURIES?

Ugggghh. I don't get it. I guess the onus is with being "openly gay." Again, not sure what that means as I have never had to prove I am "openly heterosexual." I guess the fact that I am married makes me "openly heterosexual?" Since gays can't get married in this State, I wonder what it takes to be considered "openly homosexual."

Okay. Not wanting to take this off track with a gay discussion, even though I am not sure that would be taking it off track . . . since that is obviously the reason that this church has decided it cannot in good conscience (not sure what that means anymore) be associated with an organization that recognizes that all children are welcome, regardless of their sexual preferences.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:44 PM
 
8,402 posts, read 20,273,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagomichauds View Post
Hate to be cynical, but I'm kind of waiting for the Catholic Church to jump on this bandwagon. I'm really, really hoping I'm wrong about this.

I went through 12 years of Catholic education, and I know several kids who were gay and just not out. None of the clergy discriminated against them as far as I was aware. But that was long ago and only one specific experience (my perception).

Since St. Matt's recently dropped out of the Thanksgiving multi religion service b/c of the openly gay music director I just don't know what to expect.

My youngest son attended several years of preschool at Calvary. I am sad about their decision b/c I worry about the kids who are gay but maybe too young and unaware and not out and how they and their families might feel about this.
If they are that young how would they know they are gay?
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:54 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,004,073 times
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Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
If they are that young how would they know they are gay?
You might be 17 . . . and you may have figured out you are gay (even if you have not discussed this with anyone else) . . . but you are still a child.

Children self-report that they knew they were gay (or at least - realized there was some difference between them and the majority of others around them) by age five or six.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:10 PM
 
2,082 posts, read 3,566,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Those children are the very ones I am concerned about, as well.

I didn't know about St. Matt's dropping out of the ecumenical service b/c of a gay music director. Dear me. As a liturgical organist who knows other music directors and organists, it would be disingenuous, indeed, for any church denomination to act like they haven't had a gay music director or organist providing leadership in their congregations over the years. . . since I was a child, there have been folks that most people realized were gay leading music programs all over the nation. And for that matter, how many gay priests have been beloved by congregations for CENTURIES?

Ugggghh. I don't get it. I guess the onus is with being "openly gay." Again, not sure what that means as I have never had to prove I am "openly heterosexual." I guess the fact that I am married makes me "openly heterosexual?" Since gays can't get married in this State, I wonder what it takes to be considered "openly homosexual."

Okay. Not wanting to take this off track with a gay discussion, even though I am not sure that would be taking it off track . . . since that is obviously the reason that this church has decided it cannot in good conscience (not sure what that means anymore) be associated with an organization that recognizes that all children are welcome, regardless of their sexual preferences.
I have no involvement with Calvary and this is just speculation in my side....hope not to offend anybody.
Here it goes: - maybe, maybe the church decision it is based not as much on its "good conscience", as maybe on the possibility that there could be parents who would be very vocal against having their kids as part of boy scouts trips/activities with other openly gay kids & leaders...maybe church is afraid of creating even bigger controversy between parents and loosing/angering long standing members... could this be a possibility?

In my understanding most churches while not promoting, they do accept gay members, everybody is welcome (that I know of). This is what makes me think that maybe it is not the "anti-gay" reason as much as the avoidance to stir bigger controversies between members...
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:31 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,853 posts, read 27,128,289 times
Reputation: 8923
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagomichauds View Post
Hate to be cynical, but I'm kind of waiting for the Catholic Church to jump on this bandwagon. I'm really, really hoping I'm wrong about this.

I went through 12 years of Catholic education, and I know several kids who were gay and just not out. None of the clergy discriminated against them as far as I was aware. But that was long ago and only one specific experience (my perception).

Since St. Matt's recently dropped out of the Thanksgiving multi religion service b/c of the openly gay music director I just don't know what to expect.

My youngest son attended several years of preschool at Calvary. I am sad about their decision b/c I worry about the kids who are gay but maybe too young and unaware and not out and how they and their families might feel about this.
Are Catholic schools involved with any scouts? When I was a kid, Catholic schools did not allow Brownies or Girl Scouts. They required that girls join Catholic Daughters instead of Brownies & Girl Scouts. Not sure about boys.

Catholic Daughters of the Americas
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:41 PM
 
Location: S. Charlotte
1,511 posts, read 2,874,650 times
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Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
If they are that young how would they know they are gay?
Friends of mine who are gay tell me they knew back when they were kids even if they did not share this.

I would say preschool might be a bit young to know, but Calvary does more than just preschool. They have a bunch of youth programs from sports outreach to camps, etc.

So to me it feels wrong to be excluding certain kids for something they cannot change (and let's not make this a discussion about nature vs nurture pls!).
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:43 PM
 
Location: S. Charlotte
1,511 posts, read 2,874,650 times
Reputation: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Are Catholic schools involved with any scouts? When I was a kid, Catholic schools did not allow Brownies or Girl Scouts. They required that girls join Catholic Daughters instead of Brownies & Girl Scouts. Not sure about boys.

Catholic Daughters of the Americas
Yes there are many troops sponsored by Catholic churches. Believe I read that they are the 3rd largest religious supporter/troop leader provider or whatever that term is for boy scouts in the US. I know St. Matt's does cub scouts and boy scouts.
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