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Old 05-15-2014, 03:19 PM
 
136 posts, read 157,202 times
Reputation: 114

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxhawMike View Post
But in fact a lot of people did take a "let's stick it to Wesley Chapel" approach even if that wasn't their intent, by saying don't spend money on MCRs until you fix our schools. Have the older schools been promised more money or specific capital improvements? Are they adding teachers to maintain the current student/teacher ratio?

What they are going to end up with is the same broken school, more students, and the kids will get less individual attention. Just like the BOE, the anti-MCR crowd didn't care to demand, see, or understand the comprehensive plan or to think about unintended consequences. Think of the impact this group could have made if they took a "no more kids until you fix our schools" approach... now that would have sent a meaningful message. And, btw, the $3m for MCRs was a joke. The number of MCRs needed to get through a year, maybe two years, while sorting through this mess was 4-6, if you believe in WebbMath, and we actually have those sitting in inventory.

I don't say all of this to bring up the MCR discussion again, just making the point that a certain crowd cut off their nose to spite their face because they didn't think through the entire scenario. It reminds me of the Nancy Pelosi school of "approve it before you read it".
But which is worse, 'WebbMath' or 'WxwMikeTautology?'

 
Old 05-15-2014, 03:51 PM
 
547 posts, read 535,574 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxhawMike View Post
The BOE just emptied the Cuthbertson cluster without any additions or new schools.

Anyway, what people have been asking for is a comprehensive plan that could include looking at school programs, school performance improvement, policies regarding MCRs, reassignment, capital improvements, new construction (guidelines for expansion vs. net new, and guidelines for location), etc... I'm sure there are plenty of other things that I'm not thinking of this very second. The point is that there is an approach beyond the couple of go to's (construction and reassignment).

You don't need additions or new schools until you near district capacity. We had capacity, hence the redistricting. I wouldn't say Cuthbertson was emptied out either.

"School programs" and "school performance improvement" don't increase district capacity.

Capacity is X (for the sake of this discussion assume we can calculate that number and agree on it). The only way to increase X is to build, add-on, or remodel.

MCRs are a very expensive form of adding on due to their high operating costs and disposable nature. They only increase classroom capacity while exacerbating the crowding in the core areas. They are not a solution.

Therefore, the only ways to increase district capacity are to either add-on/remodel or build. There are no other solutions. (I'm not even going to get into the crazy shift plan proposed by the Alternative Redistricting Plan people. Nobody wants that.)

Last edited by BubbaHelms; 05-15-2014 at 04:09 PM..
 
Old 05-15-2014, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Union County
5,783 posts, read 8,411,000 times
Reputation: 4818
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaHelms View Post
You don't need additions or new schools until you near district capacity. We had capacity, hence the redistricting. I wouldn't say Cuthbertson was emptied out either.

"School programs" and "school performance improvement" don't increase district capacity.

Capacity is X (for the sake of this discussion assume we can calculate that number and agree on it). The only way to increase X is to build, add-on, or remodel.

MCRs are a very expensive form of adding on due to their high operating costs and disposable nature. They only increase classroom capacity while exacerbating the crowding in the core areas. They are not a solution.

Therefore, the only ways to increase district capacity are to either add-on/remodel or build. There are no other solutions. (I'm not even going to get into the crazy shift plan proposed by the Alternative Redistricting Plan people. Nobody wants that.)
Of course you're right - but it's safe to assume that you most likely will disagree with this if you've been redistricted. So your simple logic does not get applied because one's vision is clouded by "making room for future residents". As much as we can bicker over watch levels and how they are inconsistent, it does really comes down to the capacity of the schools and buying time while wasting the least amount of dollars.

They are going to build new school(s) and/or add-on to existing ones... Taxes are going up regardless for everyone. Short of revoking permits or divine intervention that would allow impact fees in UC (contrary to state law), these are undeniable facts that both county boards will eventually come to grips with because of all the approved residential building.

Was the redistricting too big? Of course it was. We know the forecasts aka fuzzy math aka WebbMagic8Ball are guesses at best... But knowing this doesn't change what we're up against or provide actual answers to the long term "problem". They probably did the best they could given the data they had - we collectively as a county spent too much effort arguing the extremes and not pushing for compromise (aka real actual politics instead of controlling blocks). Work together people.
 
Old 05-15-2014, 05:25 PM
 
631 posts, read 736,163 times
Reputation: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid View Post
Of course you're right - but it's safe to assume that you most likely will disagree with this if you've been redistricted. So your simple logic does not get applied because one's vision is clouded by "making room for future residents". As much as we can bicker over watch levels and how they are inconsistent, it does really comes down to the capacity of the schools and buying time while wasting the least amount of dollars.

They are going to build new school(s) and/or add-on to existing ones... Taxes are going up regardless for everyone. Short of revoking permits or divine intervention that would allow impact fees in UC (contrary to state law), these are undeniable facts that both county boards will eventually come to grips with because of all the approved residential building.

Was the redistricting too big? Of course it was. We know the forecasts aka fuzzy math aka WebbMagic8Ball are guesses at best... But knowing this doesn't change what we're up against or provide actual answers to the long term "problem". They probably did the best they could given the data they had - we collectively as a county spent too much effort arguing the extremes and not pushing for compromise (aka real actual politics instead of controlling blocks). Work together people.
We'll see how it all plays out over time, but as of now there could still be room.

Back in Sept, they used 44736 as their total capacity for the 20-day numbers. This was before the watch and cap levels came out. The watch levels were set at 50236.

System Capacity = 44736
System Watch = 50236

2014-2015 = 42063 kids = 84% of Watch = 94% of Capacity
2018-2019 = 43734 kids = 87% of Watch = 98% of Capacity

We're pushing the limits now, so migration and new development will be critical to track. Now according to some people, everyone will leave and go to charters and private schools, so we definitely won't need any new/expanded schools.
 
Old 05-15-2014, 05:51 PM
 
547 posts, read 535,574 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooLogical View Post
We'll see how it all plays out over time, but as of now there could still be room.

Back in Sept, they used 44736 as their total capacity for the 20-day numbers. This was before the watch and cap levels came out. The watch levels were set at 50236.

System Capacity = 44736
System Watch = 50236

2014-2015 = 42063 kids = 84% of Watch = 94% of Capacity
2018-2019 = 43734 kids = 87% of Watch = 98% of Capacity

We're pushing the limits now, so migration and new development will be critical to track. Now according to some people, everyone will leave and go to charters and private schools, so we definitely won't need any new/expanded schools.
Right. I personally think we would want to ideally be between 90 to 95% capacity. We really don't know for sure whether we need additional capacity or not at this point. We are right on the cusp. Therefore, we are going to have to monitor growth closely for the next few years.

The complicating factor in all of this is that there is not an equal distribution of students by age. Having a target goal for capacity of say 93% would allow a bumper crop of students to move through the system occasionally without much disruption. Of course, it is impossible to maintain the target levels at individual schools as growth doesn't occur equally. We have to look at capacity at the district level which makes redistricting to adjust imbalances inevitable.

This isn't an exact science. There aren't any concrete formulas like people are demanding. When trying to achieve ideal capacity, you are trying to hit a moving target.

Last edited by BubbaHelms; 05-15-2014 at 06:29 PM..
 
Old 05-15-2014, 06:19 PM
 
985 posts, read 1,649,734 times
Reputation: 377
May 15, 2014
MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT
UNION COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION
The Union County Board of Education will hold a Special Meeting, including Closed Session, on Monday, May 19, 2014 at 7:00 p.m. at the Professional Development Center located at 721 Brewer Drive in Monroe. The budget, jury verdict, and appeal are the items on the agenda.
-ucps-
 
Old 05-15-2014, 06:47 PM
 
527 posts, read 636,549 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaHelms View Post
You don't need additions or new schools until you near district capacity. We had capacity, hence the redistricting. I wouldn't say Cuthbertson was emptied out either.

"School programs" and "school performance improvement" don't increase district capacity.

Capacity is X (for the sake of this discussion assume we can calculate that number and agree on it). The only way to increase X is to build, add-on, or remodel.

MCRs are a very expensive form of adding on due to their high operating costs and disposable nature. They only increase classroom capacity while exacerbating the crowding in the core areas. They are not a solution.

Therefore, the only ways to increase district capacity are to either add-on/remodel or build. There are no other solutions. (I'm not even going to get into the crazy shift plan proposed by the Alternative Redistricting Plan people. Nobody wants that.)
But I thought people were fighting MCRs in favor of redistricting because they wanted money to fix their schools... no? Some of you need to really open your minds.

With regards to the issues that must be addressed, it's not just about capacity. It's about maximizing the school experience across all of the schools in UC. If you want to continue to be herded around like cattle then that's what you'll get... but if the programs and performance are common across the schools then you can spread growth and minimize the need to redistrict. If you develop a comprehensive plan that follows a proven rank and stack capital improvement methodology you can attack the highest priority items first... etc, etc, etc.

As far as MCRs, they are temporary investments meant to handle temporary increases in enrollment (eg Webb's bubble). You don't invest in construction, expansion or net new, to handle temporary issues.

What has UC always done?... redistrict and build new schools. How's that working out? It's time to change the approach. It's not hard.
 
Old 05-15-2014, 07:21 PM
 
547 posts, read 535,574 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxhawMike View Post
But I thought people were fighting MCRs in favor of redistricting because they wanted money to fix their schools... no? Some of you need to really open your minds.

With regards to the issues that must be addressed, it's not just about capacity. It's about maximizing the school experience across all of the schools in UC. If you want to continue to be herded around like cattle then that's what you'll get... but if the programs and performance are common across the schools then you can spread growth and minimize the need to redistrict. If you develop a comprehensive plan that follows a proven rank and stack capital improvement methodology you can attack the highest priority items first... etc, etc, etc.

As far as MCRs, they are temporary investments meant to handle temporary increases in enrollment (eg Webb's bubble). You don't invest in construction, expansion or net new, to handle temporary issues.

What has UC always done?... redistrict and build new schools. How's that working out? It's time to change the approach. It's not hard.
Instead of "open your minds," how about you open your ears?

If you bothered to read what I said, you would know I didn't say we should build or add-on now. I said we should redistrict, watch capacity and then expand when we need to do so.

With regard to "maximizing the school experience across all of the UC schools," (which no one seemed to care about before redistricting), that is not going to "spread growth and minimize the need to redistrict." People live where they live for convenience (access to commuter routes). We could make the eastern schools on par with Marvin, but that is not going to make people move to eastern Union County.

That being said, I absolutely believe the same courses and programs should be offered at schools across the county.
 
Old 05-15-2014, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Wesley Chapel
51 posts, read 63,631 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaHelms View Post
Instead of "open your minds," how about you open your ears?

If you bothered to read what I said, you would know I didn't say we should build or add-on now. I said we should redistrict, watch capacity and then expand when we need to do so.

With regard to "maximizing the school experience across all of the UC schools," (which no one seemed to care about before redistricting), that is not going to "spread growth and minimize the need to redistrict." People live where they live for convenience (access to commuter routes). We could make the eastern schools on par with Marvin, but that is not going to make people move to eastern Union County.

That being said, I absolutely believe the same courses and programs should be offered at schools across the county.
In response to the quote, " We could make the eastern schools on par with Marvin, but that is not going to make people move to eastern Union County."

It shouldn't be "we could" or even we should, it should be that we NEED to help ALL of our schools be on par with our top schools. East, West shouldn't matter. High Density, low Density housing - it shouldn't matter. Every child in Union County regardless of resident address should be afforded the same quality facilities, the same extraordinary learning environment and the same opportunities. Anything less that that is a failure on the part of us all. It's not a matter of where people move to, its a matter of doing the right thing for the kids.

Also, I read in your post that "no one seemed to care about before redistricting", I disagree that no one cared, a statement like that is dismissive of the families that live in areas of the aging and in need of repair schools. I bet they cared, I bet they cared a lot, but not enough people in charge was listening.

As for me, I was not aware of the conditions of the other schools until I got involved with researching the redistrict. I was very much a part of my school, I volunteered hours upon hours to my local school unaware of the needs of the other schools. For that, I am sorry. However, I now know the needs and the neglect that has befallen the aging schools. I am appalled at the lack of attention those facilities and children have received. I am aware now, I care and I hope to help make a difference.

I am sure my sentiment can be said of many, many parents that were not aware of the neglect and negligence until now. They care as well. Together we can and will make a difference.

We were parents taking care of our school, until we were made aware of the other schools conditions due to this redistrict. What excuse does the BOE, UCPS Admin and BOCC have for not taking action earlier? Politics?
 
Old 05-15-2014, 08:43 PM
 
547 posts, read 535,574 times
Reputation: 218
e
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMAHER View Post
In response to the quote, " We could make the eastern schools on par with Marvin, but that is not going to make people move to eastern Union County."

It shouldn't be "we could" or even we should, it should be that we NEED to help ALL of our schools be on par with our top schools. East, West shouldn't matter. High Density, low Density housing - it shouldn't matter. Every child in Union County regardless of resident address should be afforded the same quality facilities, the same extraordinary learning environment and the same opportunities. Anything less that that is a failure on the part of us all. It's not a matter of where people move to, its a matter of doing the right thing for the kids.

Also, I read in your post that "no one seemed to care about before redistricting", I disagree that no one cared, a statement like that is dismissive of the families that live in areas of the aging and in need of repair schools. I bet they cared, I bet they cared a lot, but not enough people in charge was listening.

As for me, I was not aware of the conditions of the other schools until I got involved with researching the redistrict. I was very much a part of my school, I volunteered hours upon hours to my local school unaware of the needs of the other schools. For that, I am sorry. However, I now know the needs and the neglect that has befallen the aging schools. I am appalled at the lack of attention those facilities and children have received. I am aware now, I care and I hope to help make a difference.

I am sure my sentiment can be said of many, many parents that were not aware of the neglect and negligence until now. They care as well. Together we can and will make a difference.

We were parents taking care of our school, until we were made aware of the other schools conditions due to this redistrict. What excuse does the BOE, UCPS Admin and BOCC have for not taking action earlier? Politics?
Yes, but some schools are always going to be older and some newer. The facilities are never going to be exactly equal. That being said, they should all be properly maintained and have the same technology, athletic fields, tracks, etc.

Trust me. I'm not dismissive of the families at the older schools. The people at the older schools didn't create nearly the uproar over facilities as those against redistricting have created. They are more cost conscious and satisfied with what they have as long as it is maintained. I think there is a different expectation for facilities in different areas of the county. However, I think the parents and students at the older schools have the expectation that they have the same courses as provided at the newer schools.
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