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Old 03-04-2016, 10:35 AM
 
985 posts, read 737,182 times
Reputation: 1936
Quote:
Originally Posted by 618719 View Post
Why not turn the whole road into a toll road?

Hear me out... Having a few tolls lanes does nothing for traffic or congestion. It just finds a way to monetize the gridlock and profit off of it.

But, build the same lanes, put the same amount of money into it, and make all of I-77 a toll road. Lower investment because you wouldn't have to separate the lanes and all. You end up with 4 lanes in each direction. You'd probably cut toll costs by 90%+ because everyone will be paying instead of a very small select few. And you really would cut congestion... a 4 lane road is much more efficient than 2 free / 2 toll lanes and there will be fewer unnecessary trips, more carpooling, more bus riding, more finding alternate routes, etc if you have to pay a toll.

I don't know about all of you, but I'd gladly pay 2 bucks to be able to drive at rush hour on a 4 lane I-77 that has already started construction from downtown to Mooresville.

I want absolutely nothing with driving on either 2 free lanes that are a parking lot or 2 toll lanes that will cost 20 bucks each way.
From a logistics standpoint we are in 100% agreement that 4 free lanes or 4 toll lanes has a much higher throughput than a 2 & 2 setup. As far as tolling all lanes of 77, I have to disagree. It might be acceptable if tolling was done on all interstates in NC. Charlotte already pays more than its fair share for road improvements. We need to ditch the outdated notion that roads should be built and maintained in rural areas as part of an economic development strategy. Road funding needs a coherent strategy focused on the areas where opportunity exists and the investment provides a positive return. The money is available, its just going to the wrong areas. Its time to stop funding problems and starving opportunities.

A big part of the problem is the state Senate. Tyrell County (pop. 4,364) gets the same say as Mecklenburg County (pop. 944,373). If you live in Tyrell county your vote is worth the same as 216 Charlotteans when it comes to road funding. I'd love to see a NC amendment that requires the 25 counties with less than 25k population to merge with a neighbor. It would help limit the disproportionate representation (and funding) these counties get.

By the way, Tyrell County has less population than it did at the first census in 1790. Why do they need any transportation funding or deserve any say in it?

Last edited by Pfalz; 03-04-2016 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:00 PM
 
5,869 posts, read 7,698,493 times
Reputation: 3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by 618719 View Post
Why not turn the whole road into a toll road?

Hear me out... Having a few tolls lanes does nothing for traffic or congestion. It just finds a way to monetize the gridlock and profit off of it.

But, build the same lanes, put the same amount of money into it, and make all of I-77 a toll road. Lower investment because you wouldn't have to separate the lanes and all. You end up with 4 lanes in each direction. You'd probably cut toll costs by 90%+ because everyone will be paying instead of a very small select few. And you really would cut congestion... a 4 lane road is much more efficient than 2 free / 2 toll lanes and there will be fewer unnecessary trips, more carpooling, more bus riding, more finding alternate routes, etc if you have to pay a toll.

I don't know about all of you, but I'd gladly pay 2 bucks to be able to drive at rush hour on a 4 lane I-77 that has already started construction from downtown to Mooresville.

I want absolutely nothing with driving on either 2 free lanes that are a parking lot or 2 toll lanes that will cost 20 bucks each way.
You make a lot of sense but I'm sure you'll get comments like "we don't want NC to turn into the NJ/NY that half of the LKN area population came from."

The current plan definitely has some faults but I don't think I've seen an alternative proposed by "Widen I-77" other than "we need more general purpose lanes!!!"
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:54 PM
 
601 posts, read 789,143 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by 618719 View Post
Why not turn the whole road into a toll road?

Hear me out... Having a few tolls lanes does nothing for traffic or congestion. It just finds a way to monetize the gridlock and profit off of it.

But, build the same lanes, put the same amount of money into it, and make all of I-77 a toll road. Lower investment because you wouldn't have to separate the lanes and all. You end up with 4 lanes in each direction. You'd probably cut toll costs by 90%+ because everyone will be paying instead of a very small select few. And you really would cut congestion... a 4 lane road is much more efficient than 2 free / 2 toll lanes and there will be fewer unnecessary trips, more carpooling, more bus riding, more finding alternate routes, etc if you have to pay a toll.

I don't know about all of you, but I'd gladly pay 2 bucks to be able to drive at rush hour on a 4 lane I-77 that has already started construction from downtown to Mooresville.

I want absolutely nothing with driving on either 2 free lanes that are a parking lot or 2 toll lanes that will cost 20 bucks each way.
My understanding is that the federal government will not allow an already existing interstate to be converted to a tollway, since it was funded with federal dollars. Many toll roads in America were toll roads before the creation of the Interstate system, and other toll roads exist but are not interstates. A tollway can be converted to an Interstate, but no federal funding could have been used for its construction. A good example of this is VA 895 in Richmond, which is also another example of a toll road ran by a private company.

There were talks of allowing states to toll their interstate highways, but Congress shot it down. Many people view the Interstate system as a form of subsidization, and that isn't fair for tax payers to pay tolls on a road that was funded with their own cash previously from the gas tax. It would also open the gates to states tolling every inch of the Interstate system, as funding for new highways is becoming more and more thin.

New toll lanes are really the only form of tolls that states can get away with. I think only HOV lanes can be converted to a toll lane, but not general purpose lanes.
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:18 PM
LLN
 
Location: Upstairs closet
4,976 posts, read 8,712,068 times
Reputation: 6443
You Charlotte guys would revolt if you could see all the four lanes roads, down here in the eastern part of the state WITH NO CARS on them. Charlotte really does get screwed. A lot!
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
1,658 posts, read 1,850,427 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by LLN View Post
You Charlotte guys would revolt if you could see all the four lanes roads, down here in the eastern part of the state WITH NO CARS on them. Charlotte really does get screwed. A lot!
That's what really gets me about how NC decides to build its roads. We have US 64 throughout Eastern NC with extremely low traffic counts upgraded to a freeway, same with 264 and the I-73/74 project in the central part of the state. Yet it took them over 20 years to complete 485, still haven't finished upgrading US 74 (Independence Blvd), and decided to use tolls for 77 in Lake Norman. I don't mind those areas getting freeways but the way things are prioritized needs to be reformed, the areas with traffic counts that actually warrant widening and improvements should get them first. Looks like even with McCory in office it still didn't get done properly.
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Lake Norman, NC
7,180 posts, read 11,194,010 times
Reputation: 30731
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPhils View Post
The current plan definitely has some faults but I don't think I've seen an alternative proposed by "Widen I-77" other than "we need more general purpose lanes!!!"
I can't stand this "the contract stinks, but let's do it" mentality when people accept the toll lane contract.

Unless I am wrong, the state has been grossly exaggerating the amount of money it would cost to add two GP lanes from Exit 36 to Charlotte. This was part of their rhetoric to sell the "wonderful" toll lane plan.

Lately, they've been playing up an inflated contract cancellation fee for the toll contract and holding other local transportation issues hostage pending the building of the toll road.

The Widen I-77 group has put out information showing that the GP lanes can be built at a reasonable price with no need for the toll road.

Where did NC get the money to fund I85 expansion in Rowan and Cabarrus, and build freeways to nowhere in the rest of the state, but yet it cannot find any funds to support only one of the 3 most vital North/South thoroughfares in the state?

Check out Widen I-77's website. There's some good info there.
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Old 03-05-2016, 11:01 AM
 
5,869 posts, read 7,698,493 times
Reputation: 3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes17 View Post
I can't stand this "the contract stinks, but let's do it" mentality when people accept the toll lane contract.

Unless I am wrong, the state has been grossly exaggerating the amount of money it would cost to add two GP lanes from Exit 36 to Charlotte. This was part of their rhetoric to sell the "wonderful" toll lane plan.

Lately, they've been playing up an inflated contract cancellation fee for the toll contract and holding other local transportation issues hostage pending the building of the toll road.

The Widen I-77 group has put out information showing that the GP lanes can be built at a reasonable price with no need for the toll road.

Where did NC get the money to fund I85 expansion in Rowan and Cabarrus, and build freeways to nowhere in the rest of the state, but yet it cannot find any funds to support only one of the 3 most vital North/South thoroughfares in the state?

Check out Widen I-77's website. There's some good info there.
I didn't say "let's do it" I said they haven't offered any alternatives other than "we need more general purpose lanes."

I get the "77 is more important than Asheboro" argument, but 485 was important too and that took forever so I don't see why one would expect anything to change in regards to Charlotte getting projects ahead of other areas.

I downloaded a couple of their presentations and the only thing that cited a source for a cost for general purpose lanes was something saying $91MM for 8 miles from exit 28 to 36. Only problem is you'd need them for at least 5 more miles.
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,851 posts, read 27,123,355 times
Reputation: 8921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes17 View Post
I can't stand this "the contract stinks, but let's do it" mentality when people accept the toll lane contract.

Unless I am wrong, the state has been grossly exaggerating the amount of money it would cost to add two GP lanes from Exit 36 to Charlotte. This was part of their rhetoric to sell the "wonderful" toll lane plan.

Lately, they've been playing up an inflated contract cancellation fee for the toll contract and holding other local transportation issues hostage pending the building of the toll road.

The Widen I-77 group has put out information showing that the GP lanes can be built at a reasonable price with no need for the toll road.

Where did NC get the money to fund I85 expansion in Rowan and Cabarrus, and build freeways to nowhere in the rest of the state, but yet it cannot find any funds to support only one of the 3 most vital North/South thoroughfares in the state?

Check out Widen I-77's website. There's some good info there.
Look at how many lanes are around Salisbury. Then look at how many lanes I 85 has from Mt Holly to the state line. If an accident happens on 85, south of Exit 10 traffic has to be diverted through Kings Mountain. It's bs.
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman, NC
7,180 posts, read 11,194,010 times
Reputation: 30731
Oh look, here's another $108M for I-85 in China Grove...

$108 million DOT contract will widen I-85 into China Grove - News - Independent Tribune
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:55 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,851 posts, read 27,123,355 times
Reputation: 8921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes17 View Post
Yet I 85 goes from 3 to 2 lanes in each direction through Gaston County & stays 2 to the state line. Ever wonder how much the payoffs are?
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