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So funny how differently things can be perceived. I never challenged you. I was asking the Emissary for details when I thought YOU butted in. Ah - easy to lose track on a message board. No big deal on my end - hopefully you can not be paranoid and get over it. I'm not skimming to attack you. I'm trying to learn about REAL information to support the premise that NC parents don't value education as much as NJ parents.
You're exactly right about disgruntled parents being more likely to participate in complaining. This is a common phenomenon on city forum called "negative response bias". The basic idea is that complaints are more likely to be shared than positive or neutral feedback. When all of the negative feedback is compiled together it can paint an awful picture that is really out of perspective with the reality. You hear the same thing on radio call in shows where people gripe constantly and are perpetually "outraged".
If the 250k was an anomaly I'm not sure why it was ever even quoted or used to support the premise that special education is better in New Jersey. Have there never been special ed lawsuits in North Carolina that resulted in similar payouts? What would that prove?
I asked about pig farms because I wish you would make a specific point instead of insinuating an area is rural or that a school is underfunded due to the number of rooms. Either way, I think your advice to the OP is sound. I'm a little surprised you didn't tell them to move to Gaston County as that seems to be a one-size fits all recommendation from you, but am refreshed to see that there are some scenarios that exist where that advice isn't ideal.
I'll try to learn more about special ed in NC. I know it's been scrutinized and the data that I found shows we spend significantly less than NJ. Whether that equals worse outcomes/support is something I would need more information to conclude.
Your own data supports the idea that folks in NC aren't able or are unwilling to spend enough money to propel the K-12 education system into the top tier of state rankings. Special education is a glaring case in point! Even given the salary disparity between NC and NJ do you think that NC's $3926.27 special education supplement can buy as much as NJ's $15,805? I think not!! If you take those amounts of money to a Charlotte, NC car dealer and a Hackensack, NJ car dealer to purchase a used car, who is going to have a better car? Sometimes, the amount of money applied to a situation is critical.
As for the $250,000 amount spent on a few cases, that's an ongoing, yearly amount spent on severely autistic children whose parents wanted them mainstreamed in their school districts. Several of the students require having two teachers follow an individual student around for the entire school day. Couple that with special busing requirements and that $250,000 seems almost cheap. My sister works with one of these teachers so this information is current. Many of the parents of students with IEPs for special ed, bring their lawyer to the meetings to enroll their kids in the various special ed programs.
Since you wanted some numbers and factual data, here's the salary data for all of the ~14000 teachers in Bergen County. Feel free to find the corresponding data for NC and compare!
Your own data supports the idea that folks in NC aren't able or are unwilling to spend enough money to propel the K-12 education system into the top tier of state rankings. Special education is a glaring case in point! Even given the salary disparity between NC and NJ do you think that NC's $3926.27 special education supplement can buy as much as NJ's $15,805? I think not!! If you take those amounts of money to a Charlotte, NC car dealer and a Hackensack, NJ car dealer to purchase a used car, who is going to have a better car? Sometimes, the amount of money applied to a situation is critical.
As for the $250,000 amount spent on a few cases, that's an ongoing, yearly amount spent on severely autistic children whose parents wanted them mainstreamed in their school districts. Several of the students require having two teachers follow an individual student around for the entire school day. Couple that with special busing requirements and that $250,000 seems almost cheap. My sister works with one of these teachers so this information is current. Many of the parents of students with IEPs for special ed, bring their lawyer to the meetings to enroll their kids in the various special ed programs.
Since you wanted some numbers and factual data, here's the salary data for all of the ~14000 teachers in Bergen County. Feel free to find the corresponding data for NC and compare!
Determining where that tipping point of appropriate funding is what we are discussing. You are right that a basic commitment to funding is required, but to say that all extra dollars inevitably benefit students is plainly incorrect. There is an efficiency to deploying dollars that needs to be considered. I would like to understand what services and support are afforded to NJ disabled students that are not to NC disabled students.
We have students with full time assistants following their mainstream schedule as well. I taught 2 students with cerebral palsy with an identical accommodation that required full time help. I would guess much of the accommodations are required federally, so it would be good to learn about what sort of special services NJ disabled students are afforded that are not in NC.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essequamvideri
So funny how differently things can be perceived. I never challenged you. I was asking the Emissary for details when I thought YOU butted in. Ah - easy to lose track on a message board. No big deal on my end - hopefully you can not be paranoid and get over it. I'm not skimming to attack you. I'm trying to learn about REAL information to support the premise that NC parents don't value education as much as NJ parents.
You're exactly right about disgruntled parents being more likely to participate in complaining. This is a common phenomenon on city forum called "negative response bias". The basic idea is that complaints are more likely to be shared than positive or neutral feedback. When all of the negative feedback is compiled together it can paint an awful picture that is really out of perspective with the reality. You hear the same thing on radio call in shows where people gripe constantly and are perpetually "outraged".
If the 250k was an anomaly I'm not sure why it was ever even quoted or used to support the premise that special education is better in New Jersey. Have there never been special ed lawsuits in North Carolina that resulted in similar payouts? What would that prove?
I asked about pig farms because I wish you would make a specific point instead of insinuating an area is rural or that a school is underfunded due to the number of rooms. Either way, I think your advice to the OP is sound. I'm a little surprised you didn't tell them to move to Gaston County as that seems to be a one-size fits all recommendation from you, but am refreshed to see that there are some scenarios that exist where that advice isn't ideal.
I'll try to learn more about special ed in NC. I know it's been scrutinized and the data that I found shows we spend significantly less than NJ. Whether that equals worse outcomes/support is something I would need more information to conclude.
You're surprised I didn't suggest Gaston County? You really enjoy trying to pick a fight. I've been known to suggest Mooresville, Harrisburg, etc., if that seemed like the best place. You, however, continually try to shame people who want suburban schools.
I don't believe for a minute that you're just trying to get information about NJ schools. If you were, you would have beat feet to the main NJ board & asked your questions there.
You're surprised I didn't suggest Gaston County? You really enjoy trying to pick a fight. I've been known to suggest Mooresville, Harrisburg, etc., if that seemed like the best place. You, however, continually try to shame people who want suburban schools.
I don't believe for a minute that you're just trying to get information about NJ schools. If you were, you would have beat feet to the main NJ board & asked your questions there.
Pick a fight? You think pointing out that you offer Kings Mountain/Belmont/Gastonia as the best place to live for most people moving to town is a challenge? If I wanted to fight, I would challenge you to a fight. But that's ridiculous. This is a message board!
I haven't seen you advocate for Mooresville/Harrisburg but I need to pay better attention. I thought you only advocated for Gastonia, Belmont and Kings Mountain. My mistake- I'll pay better attention.
I support all kinds of schools. There are some great private options. I do think CMS is a better district than perceived and that there are many great schools that don't have a strong reputation, but I'm not anti-suburban schools in any way.
What don't you understand about the question I am asking? The OP asked if teachers were supported in NC. Emissary responded very well and accurately, but included a broad statement that NC parents don't care about education that I took exception with. When asked for clarification there were some anecdotes about NJ education shared in comparison. I am trying to understand that point more fully (thus requiring learning more about how things are done in New Jersey).
Ah - I'm not sure I'm going to change hearts and minds that seem set on disparaging NC parents. I'll take my questions elsewhere.
Pick a fight? You think pointing out that you offer Kings Mountain/Belmont/Gastonia as the best place to live for most people moving to town is a challenge? If I wanted to fight, I would challenge you to a fight. But that's ridiculous. This is a message board!
I haven't seen you advocate for Mooresville/Harrisburg but I need to pay better attention. I thought you only advocated for Gastonia, Belmont and Kings Mountain. My mistake- I'll pay better attention.
I support all kinds of schools. There are some great private options. I do think CMS is a better district than perceived and that there are many great schools that don't have a strong reputation, but I'm not anti-suburban schools in any way.
What don't you understand about the question I am asking? The OP asked if teachers were supported in NC. Emissary responded very well and accurately, but included a broad statement that NC parents don't care about education that I took exception with. When asked for clarification there were some anecdotes about NJ education shared in comparison. I am trying to understand that point more fully (thus requiring learning more about how things are done in New Jersey).
Ah - I'm not sure I'm going to change hearts and minds that seem set on disparaging NC parents. I'll take my questions elsewhere.
I don't question the caring and commitment of NC parents in regards to their children's education, but question whether their veracity matches that shown by NJ parents. I do question why you think that sb_295's advice is in any way negative. She's justly proud of the area she moved to, and wanting other "new arrivals" to enjoy the same area of North Carolina that she finds so desirable, is a hallmark of a good City-Data member. She's been very helpful to many newcomers on the NC city-data forum and has been more than generous to others with her specific knowledge of her area and has presented very relevant advice.
I was the one who brought up the $250,000 special ed cases. Here's an article that backs up what I've said about costs.
I don't question the caring and commitment of NC parents in regards to their children's education, but question whether their veracity matches that shown by NJ parents. I do question why you think that sb_295's advice is in any way negative. She's justly proud of the area she moved to, and wanting other "new arrivals" to enjoy the same area of North Carolina that she finds so desirable, is a hallmark of a good City-Data member. She's been very helpful to many newcomers on the NC city-data forum and has been more than generous to others with her specific knowledge of her area and has presented very relevant advice.
I was the one who brought up the $250,000 special ed cases. Here's an article that backs up what I've said about costs.
I would like to see more NC parents engage to lobby for increased teacher funding and an improved special education funding methodology. We can agree on that I think.
This op-ed describes the NC underfunding issue as well. The atlas study you shared from 15 years ago does describe a trend of increased dependence on local funding. What I would like to understand is what services and resources specifically are offered in NJ and not in NC to disabled students. One issue is the increasing share of student population that is categorized as disabled. I think there are many factors contributing to this trend and it is the one responsible for the current funding cap in place that is apparently keeping many of our students from receiving the services they should.
I would like to see more NC parents engage to lobby for increased teacher funding and an improved special education funding methodology. We can agree on that I think.
This op-ed describes the NC underfunding issue as well. The atlas study you shared from 15 years ago does describe a trend of increased dependence on local funding. What I would like to understand is what services and resources specifically are offered in NJ and not in NC to disabled students. One issue is the increasing share of student population that is categorized as disabled. I think there are many factors contributing to this trend and it is the one responsible for the current funding cap in place that is apparently keeping many of our students from receiving the services they should.
As for southbound- I think she's a great poster too.
Even in that article which was revised in June 2015, there is a paragraph that says:
Local school districts have had trouble covering such a high percentage of the $50 billion spent on special education services. Heavily impacted districts with a disproportionate number of high-need, high-cost disabled students struggle the most, particularly if the district is small or rural. Of all disabled students, approximately one-half of one percent, or around 330,000 students, require more than $100,000 in special education services per year. Given that federal and state funding formulas do not take the distribution of high-cost disabilities into account, districts with concentrations of these high-need students have much more substantial spending obligations.
Given the relative age of the data in that article, the $250,000 cost of a special ed student even in the anecdotal examples I presented, should not seem all that surprising!
Some NC school systems require parents to use health insurance to cover school treatment for their kids. If parents are poor, they may fall under the federal schips program which will only pay for ~ 25 treatments. Once they exceed that treatment number, the parents are expected to bear the out-of-pocket costs. New Jersey generally pays all of those costs.
One reason that I fault NC parents for not doing enough, is that too many "anti-education Yahoo"s are elected to the NC legislature who are more concerned that prayer be allowed in school rather than new textbooks be purchased. NJ politicians who are perceived as not willing to give the teachers union proper deference are likely to have very short careers.
I would assume the OP would have taken the advice presented here and earlier - and crossed NC off his list - given the prevailing circumstances!
Last edited by TheEmissary; 07-11-2016 at 07:23 PM..
Reason: gr
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmissary
I don't question the caring and commitment of NC parents in regards to their children's education, but question whether their veracity matches that shown by NJ parents. I do question why you think that sb_295's advice is in any way negative. She's justly proud of the area she moved to, and wanting other "new arrivals" to enjoy the same area of North Carolina that she finds so desirable, is a hallmark of a good City-Data member. She's been very helpful to many newcomers on the NC city-data forum and has been more than generous to others with her specific knowledge of her area and has presented very relevant advice.
I was the one who brought up the $250,000 special ed cases. Here's an article that backs up what I've said about costs.
I try to give people options, but I find that posters in Charlotte look down on the area west of Charlotte. If someone is looking to be 30 minutes from the airport, that includes Belmont to Kings Mountain. I mention it & leave the rest for people who live in those areas. If they want commutable acreage, that pretty well boils down to Kings Mountain & Harrisburg, maybe something near Monroe.
I'm really sick of it. I rarely post events out here anymore. I did post for Liberty Mountain, which is exclusive to Kings Mountain, & was featured on NC Weekend. Not one person made a post on the thread.
what in the sam hell is going on in here? This thread is a mess.
To the OP, yes, there are women here.. tons of them. Now your salary will take a hit but I bet you pay a nice grip for your small apt.
Don't listen to the people suggesting Gastonia, Huntersville or some other place in the sticks where a 50 year old person with 3 kids and a dog would live.
You are 27, live close to the action and enjoy all Charlotte has to offer.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltdesigner
what in the sam hell is going on in here? This thread is a mess.
To the OP, yes, there are women here.. tons of them. Now your salary will take a hit but I bet you pay a nice grip for your small apt.
Don't listen to the people suggesting Gastonia, Huntersville or some other place in the sticks where a 50 year old person with 3 kids and a dog would live.
You are 27, live close to the action and enjoy all Charlotte has to offer.
Who suggested Gastonia or Huntersville?
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