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Old 04-23-2008, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
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We've discussed many of these arguements already, but there are more to consider: Answers to the Most Common Arguments Against Concealed Carry on College Campuses

Quote:
Answers to the Most Common Arguments

Against Concealed Carry on College Campuses





Argument: "Guns on campus would lead to an escalation in violent crime."
Answer: "Since the fall semester of 2006, state law has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of all nine public colleges in Utah. Also, concealed carry has been allowed for several years at both Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO) and Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA). After allowing concealed carry on campus for a combined total of more than sixty semesters, none of these eleven schools have seen a single resulting incident of gun violence, a single gun accident, or a single gun theft. Likewise, none of the forty “right-to-carry” states have seen an increased rate of gun violence since legalizing concealed carry, despite the fact that licensed citizens in those states regularly carry concealed handguns in places like office buildings, movie theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, restaurants, churches, banks, etc. Numerous studies*, including studies by University of Maryland senior research scientist John Lott, University of Georgia professor David Mustard, engineering statistician William Sturdevant, and various state agencies, show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to be arrested for violent crimes."



*“Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns,” John Lott and David Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies (v.26, no.1, pages 1-68, January 1997); “An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population,” William E. Sturdevant, September 1, 2000; Florida Department of Justice statistics, 1998; Florida Department of State, “Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report,” 1998; Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September 2000; Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association





Argument: "Guns on campus would distract from the learning environment."
Answer: "Ask anyone in a concealed carry state when he or she last noticed another person carrying a concealed handgun. The word 'concealed' is in there for a reason. Concealed handguns would no more distract college students from learning than they currently distract moviegoers from enjoying movies or office workers from doing their jobs.



“In most states with ‘shall-issue’ concealed carry laws, the rate of concealed carry is about 1%. That means that one out of a hundred people is licensed to carry a concealed handgun. So, statistically speaking, a packed 300-seat movie theater contains three individuals legally carrying concealed handguns, and a shopping mall crowded with 1,000 shoppers contains ten individuals legally carrying concealed handguns. Students who aren't too afraid to attend movies or go shopping and who aren't distracted from learning by the knowledge that a classmate might be illegally carrying a firearm shouldn't be distracted from learning by the knowledge that a classmate might be legally carrying a firearm.”





Argument: "Colleges are too crowded to safely allow the carry of concealed weapons."

Answer: "Colleges are no more crowded than movie theaters and office buildings, where concealed handgun license holders are already allowed to carry their firearms. The widespread passage of concealed handgun laws has not led to a spate of shootings or gun thefts at movie theaters and office buildings."





Argument: "A person with a gun could ‘snap’ and go on a killing spree."
Answer: "Contrary to popular myth, most psychiatric professionals agree that the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person simply ‘snapping’ and becoming violent is not supported by case evidence. A person’s downward spiral toward violence is usually accompanied by numerous warning signs."





Argument: "A dangerous person might jump someone who is carrying a gun, take the gun, and use it to do harm."

Answer: "Even assuming this hypothetical dangerous person knew that an individual was carrying a concealed handgun, which is unlikely, there are much easier ways for a criminal to acquire a firearm than by assaulting an armed individual."





Argument: "Dorms are notoriously vulnerable to theft. It would be too easy for someone to steal an unattended firearm from a dorm."


Answer: "The vulnerability of dorms to theft does not necessitate a campus-wide ban on concealed carry by licensed individuals. There are numerous other options, from community gun lockers to small, private gun safes that can be secured to walls, floors, bed frames, etc."



NOTE: On most campuses, very few students of legal age to obtain a concealed handgun license still live in dorms. Even at the University of Texas—a major university with over 50,000 students—a quick comparison of campus housing statistics and concealed handgun licensing statistics reveals that there would likely be no more than ten to twenty concealed handgun license holders living in on-campus housing.





Argument: "It’s possible that a gun might go off by accident."
Answer: "Accidental discharges are very rare—particularly because modern firearms feature multiple safety features and because a handgun’s trigger is typically not exposed when it is concealed—and only a small fraction of accidental discharges result in injury. SCCC feels that it is wrong to deny citizens a right simply because that right is accompanied by a negligible risk."



NOTE: Only about 2% of all firearm-related deaths in the U.S. are accidental. A person is five times more likely to accidentally drown, five times more likely to accidentally die in a fire, 29 times more likely to die in an accidental fall, and 32 times more likely to die from accidental poisoning than to die from an accidental gunshot wound.



ADDITIONAL NOTE: The accidental discharge that occurred in the cockpit of a U.S. Airways jet, on March 22, 2008, occurred during the application of a poorly designed trigger lock, which FAA regulations require be in place during landing.





Argument: "It’s unlikely that allowing concealed carry on college campuses could help prevent a Virginia Tech-style massacre because most college students are too young to obtain a concealed handgun license."

Answer: "Nineteen of the thirty-two victims of the Virginia Tech massacre were over the age of twenty-one (the minimum age requirement to obtain a concealed handgun license in Virginia and most other states)."


Argument: "Self-defense training is as effective as a handgun against an armed assailant."

Answer: "If you're going to try to manually disarm an assailant, you'd better be within an arm's length of him, be standing on firm ground, not have any obstacles between you and him, and be in relatively good physical condition. If the assailant is standing four feet away, you're probably out of luck. If you're sitting in a chair or lying on the floor, you're probably out of luck. If there is a desk between you and the assailant, you're probably out of luck. And if you're elderly or disabled, you're probably out of luck. Even a well-trained martial arts expert is no match for a bullet fired from eight feet away. Why should honest, law abiding citizens be asked to undergo years of training, in order to master an inferior method of self-defense?"





Argument: "Colleges are emotionally volatile environments. Allowing guns on campus will turn classroom debates into crime scenes."


Answer: "Before concealed handgun laws were passed throughout the United States, opponents claimed that such laws would turn disputes over parking spaces and traffic accidents into shootouts. This did not prove to be the case. The same responsible adults--age twenty-one and above--now asking to be allowed to carry their concealed handguns on college campuses are already allowed to do so virtually everywhere else they go. They clearly do not let their emotions get the better of them in other environments; therefore, no less should be expected of them on college campuses."


Argument: "The college lifestyle is defined by alcohol and drug abuse. Why would any sane person want to add guns to that mix?"

Answer: "This is NOT a debate about keeping firearms out of the hands of college students. This is a debate about allowing licensed individuals to carry their concealed firearms into campus buildings, the same way they carry them virtually everywhere else. College students can already legally purchase firearms, and every state that provides for legalized concealed carry has statutes prohibiting license holders from carrying while under the influence. Legalizing concealed carry on college campuses would neither put guns into the hands of more college students nor make it legal for a person to carry a firearm while under the influence."



NOTE: Allowing concealed carry on college campuses would have no impact on the laws regulating concealed carry at bars or off-campus parties—the places where students (particularly students of legal age to obtain a concealed handgun license) are most likely to consume alcohol.





Argument: "In an active shooter scenario, like the one that occurred at Virginia Tech, a student or faculty member with a gun would only make things worse."


Answer: "What is worse than allowing an execution-style massacre to continue uncontested? How can any action with the potential to stop or slow a deranged killer intent on slaughtering victim after victim be considered ‘worse’ than allowing that killer to continue undeterred?"





Argument: "Police officers typically spend four to five months in training; whereas, concealed handgun license holders usually spend one day or less."

Answer: "Police officers do not spend four to six months learning to carry concealed handguns for self-defense; they spend four to six months learning to be police officers. Concealed handgun license holders are not police officers; therefore, they have no need of most of the training received by police officers. Concealed handgun license holders don't need to know how to drive police cars at high speeds or how to kick down doors or how to conduct traffic stops or how to make arrests or how to use handcuffs. And concealed handgun license holders definitely don't need to spend weeks memorizing radio codes and traffic laws.



"Contrary to what some opponents of concealed carry might claim, concealed handgun license holders don't need extensive tactical training because they are not charged with protecting the public--It's not their job to act like amateur, one-man SWAT teams. All a concealed handgun license holder needs to know is how to use his or her concealed handgun to stop an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, and that type of training CAN be accomplished in a few hours."



NOTE: In some states, such as Texas, the qualification test for a concealed handgun license differs very little from the annual re-qualification requirement for police officers.



Argument: "The last thing we need is a bunch of vigilantes getting into a shootout with a madman, particularly since it's been proven that trained police officers have an accuracy rate of only about 15-25%, in the field."

Answer: "Citizens with concealed handgun licenses are not vigilantes. They carry their concealed handguns as a means of getting themselves out of harm's way, not as an excuse to go chasing after bad guys. Whereas police shooting statistics involve scenarios such as pursuits down dark alleys and armed standoffs with assailants barricaded inside buildings, most civilian shootings happen at pointblank range. In the Luby's Cafeteria massacre, the Columbine High School massacre, and the Virginia Tech massacre, the assailants moved slowly and methodically, shooting their victims from very close range. A person doesn't have to be a deadeye shot to defend himself or herself against an assailant standing only a few feet away. Contrary to what the movies might have us believe, most real-world shootouts last less than ten seconds*. Even the real Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, a shootout involving nine armed participants, lasted only about thirty seconds and resulted in only three fatalities. It is unlikely that an exchange of gunfire between an armed assailant and an armed citizen would last more than a couple of seconds before one or both parties were disabled. How could a couple of seconds of exchanged gunfire possibly be worse than a ten-minute, execution-style massacre?"



*In The Line of Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement, U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, National Institute of Justice, 1997



Argument: "How are first responders supposed to tell the difference between armed students and armed assailants?"

Answer: "This hasn't been an issue with concealed carry license holders in other walks of life for several reasons. First and foremost, real-world shootouts are typically localized and over very quickly. It's not realistic to expect police to encounter an ongoing shootout between assailants and armed civilians. Second, police are trained to expect both armed bad guys AND armed good guys--from off-duty/undercover police officers to armed civilians--in tactical scenarios. Third, concealed handgun license holders are trained to use their firearms for self-defense. They are not trained to run through buildings looking for bad guys. Therefore, the biggest distinction between the armed assailants and the armed civilians is that the armed civilians would be hiding with the crowd, and the armed assailants would be shooting at the crowd."





Argument: "Some states allow citizens to be issued concealed handgun licenses at the age of 18."


Answer: "Among the thirty-six ‘shall-issue’ states*—states where local authorities cannot require qualified applicants to "show a need" before the applicant is issued a concealed handgun license/concealed carry weapons permit—six states allow, without special provision, for any person eighteen years or older to be issued a concealed handgun license. These states are Indiana, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, and South Dakota.



“Based on the FBI/Department of Justice violent crime statistics for the year 2006, the crime rates for these seven states, when ranked with all fifty states and the District of Columbia, rank as follows:



Indiana – 30

Montana – 42

South Dakota – 47

New Hampshire – 48

North Dakota – 50

Maine – 51



“Not only are Maine, North Dakota, New Hampshire, and South Dakota four of the five** U.S. states with the lowest crime rates, Montana has the tenth lowest crime rate, and Indiana isn’t even in the top 50%. Clearly these states’ lenient concealed handgun laws are not breeding generations of young violent offenders.



“The extraordinarily low crime rates in these six states, coupled with the fact that these states have a combined population of only about 10,900,000 (approximately 1.6 million less than the combined population of America’s two largest cities—New York, NY, and Los Angeles, CA—and at approximately 1/3 the combined violent crime rate of those two cities) has led Students for Concealed Carry on Campus to focus on the majority of ‘shall-issue’ states where the minimum age to receive a concealed handgun license is 21.”



*Alaska (licenses are offered but not required to carry a concealed handgun), Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wyoming



**Vermont is ranked at 49—the third least violent state. Vermont neither requires nor offers a license to carry a concealed handgun.





Argument: "It is inconceivable that any logical person would believe that the answer to violence is more guns."


Answer: "One might have just as easily told Edward Jenner, the man who discovered in the late eighteenth century that the cowpox virus could be used to inoculate people against smallpox, 'It is inconceivable that any logical person would believe that the answer to disease is more viruses.'"





Argument: "The answer to bullets flying is not more bullets flying."
Answer: "Actually, the answer to bullets flying is almost always more bullets flying. That’s why the police bring so many guns with them when they respond to a report of ‘shots fired.’"





Argument: "The answer to school violence is prevention, not guns on campus."

Answer: "Prevention and preparedness are not mutually exclusive. In a perfect system, the two approaches to safety compliment each other. Preventive measures, such as teaching students and faculty to watch for the warning signs of mental illness and providing counseling to disturbed students, can work hand in hand with preparative measures, such as developing campus alert systems, providing additional training to campus police, and allowing the same trained, licensed adults who legally carry concealed handguns when not on college campuses to do so on college campuses."











From the horse’s mouth:


"I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert." -- Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, Dallas Morning News, 12/23/97



"I ... [felt] that such legislation present[ed] a clear and present danger to law-abiding citizens by placing more handguns on our streets. Boy was I wrong. Our experience in Harris County, and indeed statewide, has proven my fears absolutely groundless." -- Harris County [Texas] District Attorney John Holmes, Dallas Morning News, 12/23/97



"Some of the public safety concerns which we imagined or anticipated a couple of years ago, to our pleasant surprise, have been unfounded or mitigated." -- Fairfax County, VA, Police Major Bill Brown, Alexandria Journal, 7/9/97



"I was wrong. But I'm glad to say I was wrong." -- Arlington County, VA, Police Detective Paul Larson, Alexandria Journal, 7/9/97



"The concerns I had - with more guns on the street, folks may be more apt to square off against one another with weapons - we haven't experienced that." -- Charlotte-Mecklenburg, NC, Police Chief Dennis Nowicki, The News and Observer, 11/24/97***
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
3,662 posts, read 8,661,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkingowl View Post
Does anyone have a link to a college where CCW is permitted. It would be interesting to see how they have regulated the environments on campus where guns may be carried.
Oklahoma is one state that has: Oklahoma legislators approve concealed weapons on campuses - Yahoo! Canada News (broken link)

Quote:
By The Associated Press



OKLAHOMA CITY - The Oklahoma state House of Representatives agreed Thursday to allow people with specialized firearms training to carry concealed weapons on the state's college campuses, despite opponents who said it makes no sense following shootings at schools across the United States.


The measure was approved 65-36 and now heads to the state Senate for a vote.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:23 PM
 
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So now I'm a bit confused...is the intent of concealed carry on campus to try to prevent VT type shootings (and allow firearms in classrooms) or not? There seem to be two different rationale at play here...some are saying that the intent is to try and prevent the type of crime prevalent at UNCC, but the FAQs suggest otherwise.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlterp View Post
So now I'm a bit confused...is the intent of concealed carry on campus to try to prevent VT type shootings (and allow firearms in classrooms) or not? There seem to be two different rationale at play here...some are saying that the intent is to try and prevent the type of crime prevalent at UNCC, but the FAQs suggest otherwise.
I believe the rationale is relevant to both considerations involving everday crime we are increasingly seeing in Charlotte and at UNCC, as well as for situations such as VT. In either case, the playing field is equalled out and innocent lives would have increased chance to survive.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:35 PM
 
830 posts, read 1,313,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
I believe the rationale is relevant to both considerations involving everday crime we are increasingly seeing in Charlotte and at UNCC, as well as for situations such as VT. In either case, the playing field is equalled out and innocent lives would have increased chance to survive.
So in the case of NC and UNCC, the current laws quoted in earlier posts would have to be changed to allow carrying in educational buildings, state buildings, etc?
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlterp View Post
So in the case of NC and UNCC, the current laws quoted in earlier posts would have to be changed to allow carrying in educational buildings, state buildings, etc?
That is correct, which is why students, professors, and other college staff are protesting at UNCC and other campuses across North Carolina.
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:47 PM
 
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Thanks carolina_guy. The links that you provided & the information that you posted answered my questions. +1000 back at you.
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Old 04-24-2008, 05:31 AM
 
830 posts, read 1,313,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlterp View Post
Quite mature there...

Regardless, in your "realm of reality" where is it OK to carry a concealed weapon on campus, and where is it not? Dorm? Classroom? Theater? Theater during a class? Dining Hall? Would schools, like municipalities, be able to post no-weapons policies where they chose?
After reading the FAQs, does your definition of the "realm of reality" change?
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Cornelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlterp View Post
After reading the FAQs, does your definition of the "realm of reality" change?
Not quite sure what you mean or who you are addressing here? The FAQs section only further supports my argument for allowing CC on campus.
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