What is the law? Shoot 'em or not? (neighborhood, live)

[carolina_guy]

I know I've posted this link several times before, but thought it is very relevant to this thread as well:

Cornered Cat

There is a WEALTH of information here. I highly recommend it for anyone!

The Cornered Cat
By Kathy Jackson

Some folks say the most dangerous place in the world is between a Mama Bear and her cubs. It may be so. I've never met a Mama Bear, myself.

The most dangerous place I ever stood was between a cornered cat and an open door.

When a cat feels threatened, she gets away from the danger as quickly as she can. She doesn't care what damage she inflicts on her way to safety, but she's not interested in fighting for fighting's sake. She does only as much as she needs to do in order to escape. She doesn't deal in revenge. If she feels threatened, she simply leaves. Efficiently.

Until she needs to use them, her claws stay sheathed. She doesn't go around threatening to maul people. She's cuddly, she's cozy, she likes to curl up next to a crackling fire on a cold winter's day. She's great company.

But don't try to trap her in a bad situation.

This site is about women and guns, not about cats. But in a way, it's about the cornered cat in all of us. It's about the determination to get away from an attacker if you need to. It's about making the decision to say, "Not me. Not mine. Not today." And it's about the tools to make that decision stick.

If you have to fight ...

Fight like a cornered cat.

Cornered Cat - Table of Contents

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by anifani821

Oh, you have hit on the thing that bothers me w/ trying to figure out what to do in these situations!!!! We want to stop and intruder - first of all, stop them from harming us or our family/friends . . . and second, we want to protect our valuables.

But we can't shoot unless we are threatened. And the truth is - no one (except maybe a psychopath) relishes the thought of shooting someone else. We do it b/c we feel there is no other choice - it is a "them or us" feeling. They are going to kill or maim us so we strike out.

So . . . is there some middle ground? Well, several posters gave us links to types of tear gas or something that would incapacitate the aggressor. I have not checked to see what is legal or not legal, but frankly, would the DA come down on us so badly if we used something like that on our own property? I honestly do not know!

Some people have stun guns but you have to get close to someone to do that and look how many cases we have heard of in the last few months where people died after being hit w/ a stun gun.

We have discussed that we can't booby trap our property.

What can be done, short of shooting someone - or macing them?

Ani, Check with the local PD about the macing products. Freeze+P is tear gas with pepper spray & is used by PDs It comes in several sizes. I am allowed to own it in NJ in the "keychain" size container. It is illegal in larger sizes.

If I use it on someone the worst that I can be accused of is simple assault because it is not deadly force. Unarmed intruder? NP - spray 'em

[remedy a4]

more empirical evidence that it's not guns who kill people

it's people that kill people

don't you people have insurance?

[NCyank]

Originally Posted by remedy a4

more empirical evidence that it's not guns who kill people

it's people that kill people

don't you people have insurance?

Yes, we have property insurance but that doesn't mean people should steal our stuff!! What you should be concerned about is if the thugs have life insurance.

[remedy a4]

my question:

are your possessions- which are likely 95% replaceable with insurance worth potentially taking another human beings life? regardless of whether they are a thug or a crook or some other person that a local society has deemed unacceptable

even if you are a trigger happy cowboy/cowgirl- no need to take another human life

[Mike409]

Originally Posted by remedy a4

my question:

are your possessions- which are likely 95% replaceable with insurance worth potentially taking another human beings life? regardless of whether they are a thug or a crook or some other person that a local society has deemed unacceptable

even if you are a trigger happy cowboy/cowgirl- no need to take another human life

If you read the original post that started this thread and the rest for that matter, you'll take note that we are discussing the legalities of protecting ones LIFE and property. God damn right my property is worth protecting. Risking my life? That's up to ME to decide and nobody else. Someone elses life, well, maybe he/she/they should have picked another target, if the "job" ended up differently then they anticipated.

If you choose to wait for the Police and insurance company to handle things, so be it. We are not advocating shooting someone over property. You should read the ENTIRE thread.

[anifani821]

Thank you for stating that so well, Mike.

I have always thought that a person who steals stuff for a living has made a decision that his life is on the line at all times. Kind of like a drug dealer. When you agree to live that way, you are recognizing that someone could cross your path at just that moment when you are vulnerable . . . and maim or kill you - and that would include police - not just the citizens who are getting robbed.

They used to hang horse thieves. Why? B/c the most valuable thing a man often owned was his horse. And for many, life w/o a horse would have meant one's sure demise. Living out on a homestead, needing to get to a trading post to get supplies . . . having an emergency and no way to get help w/o a horse for transport . . . so it was recognized that stealing a man's horse was an offense so egregious that one would forfeit one's life for that crime.

I suppose there are those amongst us who would say we are much more civilized today - and we should never take someone's life b/c he/she was only stealing a material possession. Well . . . I respect human life. But the thug is not respecting my life when he decides to sit on his lazy ass all week and then makes a run to go rip off my possessions while I am working to earn the money to pay for them . . . I'd say a man who would do that does not have much respect for himself or anybody else. Does that give me the right to kill him? No. But if he is already on my property, he has decided to risk that I might. And what else does he plan to do now that he has trespassed onto my space on this planet?

What concerns me is - how far is any given thug gonna go w/ his miscreant behavior? Is he gonna rip off that A/C, then come inside and attack me?

How do I know?

[bibit612]

Okay I've been following the thread, and maybe I missed this part so I apologize in advance if it has already been discussed. If someone broke in to my house and I shot the perp with the intent to maim and not to kill, but he died anyway, am I still liable?

[NCN]

It has always been my understanding that if someone breaks into your house and you are there he or she is a threat to you life and you have a right to protect yourself. If I saw someone stealing or destroying property outside, I would call the police. We live on a dead end street. Hope they can run, because the street will be blocked. The police and fire department get here fast. I have seen it happen when an intruder came to a home down the street. We had about 20 volunteer firemen blocking the entire street in minutes.

[Mike409]

Originally Posted by bibit612

Okay I've been following the thread, and maybe I missed this part so I apologize in advance if it has already been discussed. If someone broke in to my house and I shot the perp with the intent to maim and not to kill, but he died anyway, am I still liable?

The short answer is no. If your shooting is justifiable, it does not matter if the bad guy lives or dies. If the shooting is NOT justifiable, it makes a BIG difference. You better start CPR.