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Old 02-09-2009, 08:22 AM
 
4,222 posts, read 7,841,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdkb View Post
Interesting news today that revealed that CMS poverty level is greater than 50%. This is typical of highly dense cities like NY, Atlanta, DC, Chicago, Boston, etc.. where there are several ultra expensive private schools for the rich who want to reside in the city. (Or rural areas)

My concern is that you shouldn't see numbers like this for an area like Charlotte that's essentially in an infant stage of city growth.

The news also cited the following:
1) CMS is 42 percent black, 34 percent white and 16 percent Hispanic
2) > 50% poverty is the tipping point for people
Could that be because so many kids with working parents that earn a living and get involved in their children's education move to Matthews, Pineville, Ft. Mill, Concord, Mooresville, the Lake, Indian Trail, and Mint Hill? I am sure that the gap will close in a couple of years when us hard working people start supporting the slackers. What is wrong with expensive private schools. If that is the price that one has to pay to have their children go to a school to learn and not spend the day watching their teacher control descipline problems, They're lucky to have the option. Overall, I see nothing interesting about the percentages, it is typical of any place with the right demographics. And, what is considered poverty level has risen substantially over the last decade.
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:38 AM
 
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[quote=stlterp;7380363]
Deed restrictions in neighborhoods like Myers Park could, and were used to keep out blacks, as well as poor whites.

-You could have grouped together the two races and just said "poor".

Just like co-op boards in places like New York, these neighborhood deed restrictions could be applied at the whim of a neighborhood...and Myers Park was wealthy enough and politically connected enough to keep itself as an enclave of wealth and privilege while less wealthy and connected neighorhoods went downhill.


-I Don't quit understand. If I live in a nice, safe neighborhood, am I wrong by not wanting a criminal element relocating to my neighborhood? Am I wrong for wanting to walk throughout my neighborhood without fear of crime? Am I wrong for not wanting my schools brought to a failing level through the integration of students from neighborhoods where the majority could care less about learning and the physical condition of the school? Studens/parents are allowed to attend the school of choice. Public transportation is provided to students that wish to attend other schools in most cases. A student in a low income neighborhood should have the opportunity to attend a school with students that perform well. Students that do not perform well and are behavior problems should not be transported to another school just to make some kind of passe' social/political statement. Schools don't fail, students parents, and community leaders fail. There will always be a lower class of the population. It happens everywhere there are humans. I do hope things get better, but pointing a finger is meaningless. Besides, having higher class neighborhoods gives upwardly motivated individuals something for which to strive. If a person is rejected because of skin color or something that one can't help, there is a problem, but that isn't the case. It is a matter of achievement. Seems like many people today are judging others by their behavior, achievement and worth instead of the color of their skin. That is what MLK wanted. Right?

First you
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:24 AM
 
Location: CLT native
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandibadji View Post
There will always be a lower class of the population. It happens everywhere there are humans. I do hope things get better, but pointing a finger is meaningless. Besides, having higher class neighborhoods gives upwardly motivated individuals something for which to strive. If a person is rejected because of skin color or something that one can't help, there is a problem, but that isn't the case. It is a matter of achievement. Seems like many people today are judging others by their behavior, achievement and worth instead of the color of their skin. That is what MLK wanted. Right?

First you
Great post!
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:30 AM
 
1,350 posts, read 3,762,459 times
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Do you think it would be possible for students who receive assistance such as free or reduced lunches and are doing poorly(either behavior or grades) in school to require their parents to participate in some kind of "parenting" classes in order to continue to receive these handouts.
I'm not sure what will help. I'm just trying to come up with some solution to the problem. The problem begins at home most of the time and that is where we should start. You don't have to have a lot of money to be a good parent.
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:50 AM
 
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[quote=bandibadji;7387557]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlterp View Post
Deed restrictions in neighborhoods like Myers Park could, and were used to keep out blacks, as well as poor whites.

-You could have grouped together the two races and just said "poor".
Not true...restrictions were quite specific about race, along with other specific restrictions on income (or through means like minimum lot and house size, etc) Point is that neighborhoods like Myers Park & Eastover, because they had such a concentration of financial and political power, were able to steer the course of Charlotte to their liking for many years, on issues that go far beyond schools.

The problem with poverty in schools, be they rural or urban, is that there are so many factors at play that are beyond a school's control. I do think that it is important to create an environment within the school that is conducive to learning. A school cannot control what goes on in the neighborhood beyond it, but it can try within its own 4 walls. If a student is constantly hungry, that is not conducive to learning. If a student arrives in Kingergarden already significantly behind in terms of learning, that's not a good thing. Certainly there is waste and abuse of programs like free/reduced lunch, Head Start, etc...but there is also a lot of good. IMO, it's a matter of spending money and time up front to try and prevent further issues down the road. It's not going to be 100% effective, and certainly not an anti-dote to pesistent generational poverty, but it is a means.

Bottom line is that when a school system loses its middle class, it is in serious trouble. I do agree that CMS is way too big, and that more control and accountability is needed on the local level...in a way, there are some parallels with what Chief Monroe is doing with the police, getting more officers on the street and shifting more control to the local precincts. Unfortunately, with school board and union politics, it is much more difficult to do with the school system.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:01 AM
 
4,222 posts, read 7,841,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssd3 View Post
Do you think it would be possible for students who receive assistance such as free or reduced lunches and are doing poorly(either behavior or grades) in school to require their parents to participate in some kind of "parenting" classes in order to continue to receive these handouts.
I'm not sure what will help. I'm just trying to come up with some solution to the problem. The problem begins at home most of the time and that is where we should start. You don't have to have a lot of money to be a good parent.
If a kid is doing poorly grade wise without bahavioral issues, there are usually tutorial programs in place in school. On the other hand, for behavioral problems, your idea is good. The only problem is that mandatory participation would require a court order, an act of law, or the parent volunteering which is unlikely. Yes, 90% of the problems result from home situations. Unfortunately, we live in a society that makes excuses for the those that chose not to contribute thus creating complacency in that sector.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:07 AM
 
Location: State of Being
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Excellent points, Stlterp. I agree that many of the problems we see in schools at the middle school and upper grade levels could possibly have been mitigated if addressed during the first few years of school attendance.

I also agree that CMS is too large and operations would be better handled if there were more districts (and more intervention at the local level in the most "at risk" populations).

However, it still concerns me that funding is based on these free lunches, when even school board members have flatly stated that they feel fraud is being perpetrated in many cases. The ratio of additional funding is 1.3 for each student in the free lunch program. We are alloting so much money to underachievers - and programs for underachievers - which truly has made our school systems across the country be more involved w/ failing students than w/ providing challenging curricula, programs and resources for achievers.

Something about that just doesn't seem right to me, even tho I agree that not addressing at risk children leads to other societal problems later on.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:26 AM
 
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[quote=stlterp;7388523]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandibadji View Post


I do think that it is important to create an environment within the school that is conducive to learning. A school cannot control what goes on in the neighborhood beyond it, but it can try within its own 4 walls.

- So do you think that schools let students set up their own environment in the classroom. Do you not think that teachers jump in and intervene when the environment is not conducive to learning?

If a student is constantly hungry, that is not conducive to learning.

- Kids are hungry because mom doesn't get up to fix something to eat or she prefers to use breakfast money on scratch off lotto tickets. You will never convince a former teacher that a parent can't provide something nutritional to start off the day.


If a student arrives in Kingergarden already significantly behind in terms of learning, that's not a good thing.

- Ignorant parents should lose the idea that it isn't important to work with their child before kindergarten to teach basic social/learning skills. It is pretty easy to read or have meaningful conversations with pre kindergarten children.

IMO, it's a matter of spending money and time up front to try and prevent further issues down the road. It's not going to be 100% effective, and certainly not an anti-dote to pesistent generational poverty, but it is a means.

- Are you not aware of the billions upon billions of wasted dollars spent without positive results? Have you ever been to Asia or Eastern Europe? If you had, you would realize that as long as a student is comfortable inside a classroom, ie. not freezing, he/she is capable and normally successful in his/her academic accomplishments. We have a third world philosophy in the U.S. that money is needed for everything. It isn't.

Bottom line is that when a school system loses its middle class, it is in serious trouble.


I do agree that CMS is way too big, and that more control and accountability is needed on the local level...in a way, there are some parallels with what Chief Monroe is doing with the police, getting more officers on the street and shifting more control to the local precincts. Unfortunately, with school board and union politics, it is much more difficult to do with the school system.
- The serious trouble will be losing good teachers because their efforts are fruitless and disappointing. I don't see doomsday at the end of the tunnel. I am hoping for a change in attitude that could be possible with the new president if he leads the right way. Chief Monroe and politics has no real bearing on poverty/education unless he can get motivate the guardian or guardians of students.

We need to forget about money resolving all issues. It doesn't!
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:35 AM
 
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I spend a lot of time in Asia. I have also spent months in Eastern Europe (Czech Republic) There is a huge difference culturally in terms of respect for education. The environment is night and day, and it does start at home, but it permeates all levels of the society. Not all of it is positive (cram schools, insanely high student stress levels, university entrance based solely on tests, job placement based largely on university, etc) but it's a different ballgame.

I also think that Asian schools, by and large, do a really good job early on, but are less effective as students get older. They do a great job of teaching the basics, but not necessarily critical thinking, etc...which is why you see so many Asian grad students on US campuses.

No, money is not the end-all answer...Charlotte schools will always seem to cost a lot compared to some other districts around the state because of the complexity of urban schools, but that's not going to change overnight. But I don't get how punishing children for the sins (and omissions) of their parents gets us anywhere.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:50 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,879 posts, read 77,077,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlterp View Post
I spend a lot of time in Asia. I have also spent months in Eastern Europe (Czech Republic) There is a huge difference culturally in terms of respect for education. The environment is night and day, and it does start at home, but it permeates all levels of the society. Not all of it is positive (cram schools, insanely high student stress levels, university entrance based solely on tests, job placement based largely on university, etc) but it's a different ballgame.

I also think that Asian schools, by and large, do a really good job early on, but are less effective as students get older. They do a great job of teaching the basics, but not necessarily critical thinking, etc...which is why you see so many Asian grad students on US campuses.

No, money is not the end-all answer...Charlotte schools will always seem to cost a lot compared to some other districts around the state because of the complexity of urban schools, but that's not going to change overnight. But I don't get how punishing children for the sins (and omissions) of their parents gets us anywhere.
Exactly. And the whole point of education is to help children grow up to be productive, law-abiding, socially integrated good citizens.

I think that we often apply ineffective measures to the pursuit of that goal. Children who are in a dysfunctional situation at home, especially when poverty is in the mix, present a real dilemma for educators. Providing such things as parental education can only help insofar as the parents are willing to participate in those programs. The same with tutoring.

The Cabarrus school system works hand in hand with a very noteworthy program through the Academic Learning Center, a non-profit organization. They work w/ poverty defined schools (Title I, I believe). To me, this seems like a meaningful way to help children in at-risk situations.

Since CMS has now reached the dubious recognition of having a large population of impoverished school children . . . seems this type of program would be viable here.

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